Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottoman-Portuguese War


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. In view of the socking and POVFORK concerns outlined in the discussion, and the unrebutted assertion that the history of this article is already in the history of Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations, which allows editors to build on it if deemed necessary.  Sandstein  08:53, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Ottoman-Portuguese War

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There is currently a non-formal discussion regarding this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. I haven't read through the whole article yet, but a quick glance shows that it's a WP:POVFORK of Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations (formerly Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts). My main concern is that there are so many quotations in it that I had originally considered it for WP:G12, but it may have some material that could be saved and incorporated into the already existing article. The article (formerly "The Portuguese-Ottoman War") also very clearly essay-like and non-neutral in its tone. It was a good faith initiative by its creator, but there are so many issues here that we're way past the point of preservation, and improving it would most likely involve cutting its size down by over 80%. And finally, the inclusion of "Ottoman" in the title may be misleading, since the majority of confrontations in the Indian Ocean involved other Muslim states like the Mamluk Sultanate, for which we already have Portuguese-Mamluk naval war, as well as the Gujaratis among others. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Sir Thiago is the creator of the contested article and so far practically the only contributor to it. -The Gnome (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Sir Thiago has been banned for being a sockmaster. -The Gnome (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete Since we already had Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts, Conquest of Tunis (1535), Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1538-1559), Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1580-1589) and also Ottoman naval expeditions in the Indian Ocean, creating a new article was clearly superfluous. Having read it carefully, I came to the conclusion that it makes no attempt to explain what events actually took place and when. Most of the sources are also nothing more than a title. Crenelator (talk) 19:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Portugal-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete a WP:CFORK and full of synthesis due to forcing modern terminology and conventions on a pre-modern conflict. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 03:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep on account of evidence-based independent notability per sources cited and of Sir Thiago's reasoning detailed above . Most "delete" suggestions are essentially based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
 * To the point: All the issues raised about text quality are and should be worked on, i.e. modern terminology should be amended where inappropriate (however, note that every serious historical analysis is made from a modern point of view); whatever lack of neutrality exists can and should be washed off; and essay-like verbiage can be corrected. -The Gnome (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Why are you overlooking the CFORK concerns and the possible copyright infringement? Are those "IDONTLIKEIT" arguments? I actually did propose that we incorporate the non-problematic material into Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations, and I invite to take the lead in the process of saving this material. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the remarks. I find your concerns about WP:POVSPLIT valid but I do not see much of an issue: This is an article that can stand on its own, although the similarity with other subjects might lead eventually to merging. I see no reason to delete altogether, though, but as is my nature I remain open to argument. The copyright concern is evidently more serious. File under "issues that can be solved" through extensive paraphrasing and deletions. -The Gnome (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Certainly, there is no reason to delete this article. Now, what copyright issue is the article facing? Sir Thiago (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's just start for now with the fact that the article overly relies on quotations. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It should be very easy to deal with, what more? Sir Thiago (talk) 15:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Would you be willing to investigate this? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Over-use of quotations and copyright violations are not the same things. One is a violation of our non-free content policy, and the other is a violation of our copyright policy. Articles with excessive quotations are not copyvio and do not qualify for G12 deletion. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 22:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Until now, the only persons that presented valid arguments and reasoning are Sir Thiago and The Gnome since by just reading the Ottoman-Portuguese War article it's totally clear that it's not WP:CFORK at all. This article deal with the reasons, politics and military aspects of the war. Also, some of the arguments presented here against the article are totally invalid in terms of reliability. Every point made in the referred article is supported by valid sources, and that's the proof why this article is by no means essay-like. As for the other articles, supposedly about a war between the Ottomans and the Portuguese, what's the objective of those? Indeed, what's the porpuse of the Ottoman-Portuguese Conflicts article if inside it they cite Turkish Crusade and Ottoman-Venetian War? Compare this with the articles Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1538-1559) and Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1580-1589) and see how vague and shallow they are. It seems clear that some here are just beeing driven by personal opinions and WP:IDONTLIKEIT attitudes and are not really critical about the article, because it's not possible to compare these articles with the Ottoman-Portuguese War. So, before suggesting a deletion of a valid and well done article, people should help to fix and improve it, that is the main focus of this encyclopedia. LordPedro (talk) 14:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC) — LordPedro (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Striking comments by LordPedro, confirmed sockpuppet of Sir Thiago. -The Gnome (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. Are you guys serious about the deletion of this article? It's the only high-quality article citing primary sources about the war and presenting respected sources, and you want it to be deleted because of other bad referenced and not straight-forward articles? Wikipedia would lose and important entry if that happened. Just use reason, not your "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" opinion. IPCL (talk) 14:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC) — IPCL (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Striking comments by IPCL, confirmed sockpuppet of Sir Thiago. -The Gnome (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment if there's any content which can be saved, it should be merged to Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations, which is on the same topic, at a better title, and doesn't have the various content problems. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 17:23, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, as article creator has been involved in puppetry shouldn't this article be deleted as a matter of course? i've seen wp be purged of other puppet editor work, why is this different? Coolabahapple (talk) 13:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:G5 states that articles can be deleted if they have been created by banned or blocked users in violation of their ban or block, and that have no substantial edits by others. The rule further clarifies that the article must have been made while the user was actually banned or blocked. A page created before the ban or block was imposed or after it was lifted will not qualify under this criterion. The creator was only banned yesterday. -The Gnome (talk) 16:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge to Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations or just delete.  Much of this is an WP:ESSAY about conflicts between the Portuguese and Muslim states that may have owed nominal allegiance to the caliph, but were in practice independent.  The Ottoman Empire did not rule in India or Aceh, so that they (together with much of the conflict in the Indian Ocean) do not belong.  Peterkingiron (talk) 09:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per below. Merge all into Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations. —Srnec (talk) 02:44, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Since this discussion gained some traction, I'd just like to take the chance to point out a few issues one last time. As mentioned above, everything in this article falls within the already existing Conquest of Tunis (1535), Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1538-1559), Ottoman-Portuguese conflicts (1580-1589) or Ottoman naval expeditions in the Indian Ocean (WP:CFORK). It's an article about a war, in which no battles are actually detailed or contextualized, only that according to some people, the Portuguese fought them really well (WP:POVFORK WP:IMPARTIAL). There's actually no clear structure or sucession of events, only a collection of concepts (WP:NOTESSAY). Also, if we take a look at the "declaration of war" section, we find not who declared war, when or why, but that such information can apparently be found at the National Archives of Lisbon... Somewhere (WP:NOR). Though numerous, most sources are actually completely unhelpful since they consist of nothing more than a title. So while I think it's fine to try and pin down the exact single major issue with the article, the whole thing just seems like a dumpster fire. Crenelator (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:01, 30 May 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 01:59, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete CSD A10. This edit of Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations with the edit summary "Due to criticisms about my edits in the original article, I'm removing all my contributions from this page to a new one, to encompass the whole period of war and battles between the Portuguese and the Ottomans" which shows absolutely clearly that not only is this a POVFORK, but it is deliberately intended to be a POV fork in a flagrant disregard for our guidelines. Since the entire content of this article is already in the history of Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations a merge is entirely unnecessary.  If editors feel this material has merit, they can simply roll back to the pre-deletion version and start cleaning it up from there. SpinningSpark 22:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.