Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Our Lady of Grace (Encino)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Mkdw  talk 22:07, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Our Lady of Grace (Encino)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Notability LikeMeercats (talk) 16:04, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete: No sources cited to establish notability. Bkissin (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The question at AfD is not whether the page is adequately sourced, the question id whether sources exist.   For large, long-existing churches, they almost always do.  Suggest that editors run WP:BEFORE using a news archive.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:15, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Except, of course, the (brief) Los Angeles Times article on the first anniversary of the church's founding in 1945 that was already on the page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:40, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:18, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:18, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:18, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:18, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

*Redirect - to Encino, Los Angeles - insufficient sourcing to demonstrate notability under either the technical or the actually implemented rules for an elementary school. It's already listed as a school at the redirect target. , do you have any specific objection to it being a redirect rather than straight delete? Nosebagbear (talk) 22:06, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Except, of course, for the fact that Our Lady of Grace, is NOT only a school, it is a large parish church.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:40, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * That was factored in, however I have cast a new vote below per the changes
 * Comment - Nosebagbear No objections on my part. Still learning the ropes here. Came across it as a "random article" and didn't seem like it fit as a part of Wikipedia. LikeMeercats (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * , No objections here. Redirect is definitely the better option., I'll explain on your talk page. Bkissin (talk) 00:24, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment @Nosebagbear Would you mind giving a short explanation of when Redirect is a good option? As referenced above, still getting my arms around everything.
 * probably keep. This is a a large Catholic parish and elementary school.  It took about 2 seconds to locate a notable alum of the school (Barry Lopez).  Most well-established churches this size are notable.  Even the most cursory search turns up stuff like 2018: Priest removed from Encino church over misconduct allegations involving an underage girl.  E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:35, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * None of that actually provides justification for a keep. Sheer size isn't sufficient and either the older WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES or the newer school notability rules provides automatic notability for an elementary school. Additionally, notability can't be inherited - notable alumni don't make the school notable. Nosebagbear (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
 * But this is a large church. A church taht runs an elementary school.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:15, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Our Lady of Grace not only runs an elementary school. It is also the home parish of Crespi Carmelite High School; the high school and elementary school are both adjacent to the church, with mass for both schools held at the church. Cbl62 (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * - As regards the priest misconduct article, I don't believe it meets independent (mostly repackaged quotes) or Sig Cov (not much detail about the school/church itself) Nosebagbear (talk) 21:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Note that individual churches do not come under WP:NCORP, and that local and regional sources are acceptable to pass WP:GNG.   This page just needs sourcing, and it make a week or two for editors to do that.
 * WP:HEY, As I wrote above, a large church, in a large edifice, can almost always be sourced. I have done a minor expand/source; much more material is available from which this article can be expanded.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. One of the largest Catholic parishes in Los Angeles with both a primary school and high school (Crespi Carmelite High School) on its campus. Passes under WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 03:32, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: Article was unsourced when this AfD was launched in good faith. The article has since been expanded and has multiple sources and continues to grow. Accordingly, E.M.Gregory's invocation of The Heymann Standard is on point. Cbl62 (talk) 13:17, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep (change of !vote) per WP:HEY - my thanks to and Cbl62 for their improvements. I was a little unsure as regards Sig Cov but a couple of the sources that I can't see have titles so on point I'll trust on E.M.Gregory's reputation that they are suitable. Nosebagbear (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * thank you. WP:BEFORE is difficult because so many 20th century WP:RS are behind paywalls - or not archived at all. E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:35, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify if you are now a "keep". Your unbolded "probably keep" may be viewed as amibiguous. Thanks. Cbl62 (talk) 20:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.