Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pío López Obrador


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Izno (talk) 01:59, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Pío López Obrador

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:CRIMINAL / WP:BLPCRIME, which states "Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured." All we have here are some newspaper allegations of so far minor calibre, not even a court case or a truly major scandal (the kind that gets massive street protests and the like), about a minor politician (a candidate, but not elected) who is the brother of a notable person. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions. Fram (talk) 07:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. The nominator's assessment is correct as a WP:BLPCRIME/WP:POLITICIAN fail with trivial biographical depth beyond the accusations of corruption. • Gene93k (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose deletion The subject is a significant personality. Considering that the government's number one priority is the fight against corruption, it is important to include the article.Calmecac5 (talk) 14:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Just being related to a famous person doesn't make people notable in their own right. A significant personality should get non-trivial reliably sourced coverage about who Pío López Obrador is as an independent subject.  Creating a biography of living person solely composed of unproven allegations violates multiple Wikipedia policies, as I and the nominator have stated above.  If the media aren't producing an in-depth profile of this person, it is not Wikipedia's purpose to shine a spotlight on him. • Gene93k (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose deletion. The information possibly (this is theoretical, have not assessed) should be merged into the brother's or some other article, but I vehemently oppose deleting it because Mexicans aren't rioting in the streets. If nothing else it should be in Corruption in Mexico Elinruby (talk) 04:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you really linking a WP:BLP to various scandals and to drug cartels without any actual evidence (these aren't even mentioned in the newspaper articles), never mind a conviction? I would urge you to remove these allegations, as this is simply not allowed on Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 06:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You do not understand BLP policy, AGF. [This https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-odebrecht/mexico-asks-brazils-moro-for-help-with-its-odebrecht-graft-probe-source-idUSKCN1SD2QE] makes it extremely plausible that such a claim has been made (see Dilma and Lula).
 * I am not linking anything, I am saying this is not a case for speedy deletion just because the Mexican people are not in the street.
 * The Mexican people have in fact been in the street and in the jungle for some time in Chiapas
 * I am not endorsing the truth of the reporting. If convinced it is untrue I will withdraw my objection.
 * I have not evaluated the sources. This would be a better basis for making this decision than whether there is an insurrection, imho.
 * It is also possible that these references are hit pieces, which would also be notable.
 * I say these things as someone who has spent several years with the material. It is relevant to Operation Car Wash and the Odebrecht pages. These are absolutely in line with Wikipedia policy; I was named editor of the week for some of my stuff on Operation Car Wash. There is definitely a BLP concern but at least at this point I disagree with any speedy deletion. I have categorized the article under Corruption in Mexico. It is relevant to this category whether true or not. I have also identified the Chiapas politician. I suggest vetting the sources if you want to delete it. Elinruby (talk) 08:08, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I just realized that you probably don't know that the bagman is always somebody's brother. Elinruby (talk) 08:12, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Fine, I have removed the BLP violations for you then. You are using a reuters article which doesn't mention Pio as a justification for your smears on him. It doesn't matter if they may be true or not, without reliable sources making the same accusations they shouldn't be discussed here (and without a conviction they shouldn't be in the article). IF you reinstate the allegations and implications I will bring this to some appropriate noticeboard instead. Fram (talk) 08:59, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I will be reverting that. Feel free to complain. I privided a direct link between Obredecht and Obrador. You have completely missed the point. At least one of the references provided looks reliable, and even corporate and mainstream. The other seems to be some sort of blog but it looks professional and has a staff box that lists quite a few editors. I provided a gold=plated link (The Economist?) for a connection between the Obredechts and Obrador. I am in fact suggesting that he could have been set up. If you do not think the Obredechts have something to do with Brazil, please inform yourself before commenting further. I have not ruled out a BLP violation yet, but it us definitely not a speedy delete. After identifying the other politician mentioned, I checked his article and hr is not just some Chiapas politician, he is a cabinet member in the Mexican government. If he is making cash payments to the reformist president's brother, it is notable, sorry, and it doesn't matter how indignant you are. I find your defense of this fellow's honor fascinating, but it is also in the BLP for thr other politician, and apparently it's on video. That is pretty freaking reliable. Of course, this doesn't conclusively prove that is it true, but now that we know it isn't a candidate for speedy delete we can discuss whether there are BLP violations, and this depends on whether this is true, which on wikipedia is largely determined by the reliability of the sources. And these are, based onn editorial review. Elinruby (talk) 11:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Removed again and raised at the BLP noticeboard. Please dont' reintroduce the text until it is settled one way or the other there. As for your reply, your "gold-plated link" doesn't mention the subject of the article/AfD, so can not be used to introduce any links between him and other crimes or criminal organisations. I have no interest at all in whether the Mexican president or others are involved with whatever scandal, country, ...; if you want to link Pio Lopez Obrador to any of these things, then you need sources linking him directly to them, not connecting the dots on your own. Fram (talk) 11:45, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not work this way. Per WP:Verifiability, especially the WP:PROVEIT section, it is for the contributing editor to vet the sources that support the content. Sources should be reputable for checking their facts. If a source is a hit piece, Wikipedia should almost never use it, even as evidence of notability.  Brazil is only relevant here in that WP:BLP1E and WP:BLPCRIME apply there too.  Secondary figures don't mentions, let alone Wikipedia articles, especially when the accusations are not proven. Finally, Wikipedia is not investigative journalism.  It is not Wikipedia's mission to illuminate topics that should be of general interest or to right great wrongs in general. • Gene93k (talk) 10:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Likely copyvio: My Spanish isn't quite good enough to be sure this article lifts whole paragraphs from its references, but I think it does. If so, that is reason enough to delete it, but at least one of those sources looks pretty reputable. Would be interested to know what others think, but, I suspect there may be some truth there, but I don't know what it is. I have not followed Mexico in much detail. Obrador is supposed to be a populist reformer. Important if true. HTH. Elinruby (talk) 08:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC),
 * The English-language sources are catching up to the Spanish ones you still don't seem to have read. Meanwhile, do not delete this article. There are plentiful reliable sources (FT, Bloomberg, Reuters) that the PEMEX scandal is related to Car Wash, and the video of the brother surfaced a day or two later, which definitely does feel like retaliation but also raises some serious news coverage. I know it's complicated, but the point is this: it is no longer a speedy delete, not happening. The fact that there is a video is now verified, and my previous analysis of the provided sources is irrelevant since we are going to base it on the English-language financial press, and won't have to worry about it. By the way, one of the allegations in the PEMEX scandal is that a prior president allowed cartels to steal oil ;) so I suppose, AGF, that you are unaware of the ABCs of this kind of corruption. . I will rewrite this in my own words to fix the copyvio; and link it in to Odebrecht with lotsa sources. It perhaps would be better to merge it but I will have to look at this further. Elinruby (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   19:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete, mentioning the incident somewhere is fine but having a standalone article on him is not, WP:CRIME. Practically all the coverage is just "AMLO's brother on tape!", occasionally some short paragraph about who the person is. Little of what's currently in the section even directly relates to him. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails Notability for Politicians and judges since he was never elected to anything and received insufficient coverage of his campaign. Also, per Invalid criteria, notability cannot be established through a relationship with someone notable. Essentially there is only coverage of this person for one event. And the event lacks notability. I notice that the article ends by saying his brother had promised to end corruption. It reads more like a hit piece on the president than a serious article. TFD (talk) 21:16, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.