Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PBS logos


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Largely discounting the arguments before the presentation of Cunard's sources, there's a clear consensus to keep, but also some feeling that the article could benefit from copy editing and pruning of detail.

Also, after surviving seven AfDs over the span of 10 years, I would suggest that there's unambiguous, long-standing, and well-established consensus that this is not going to get deleted. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

PBS logos
AfDs for this article:  
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

It's just cruft. Survived AFD six (!) times. KATMAKROFAN (talk) 23:16, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, a Wikia site devoted to logospotting was created sometime in between the last AFD nomination and this one, so we don't need this anymore. KATMAKROFAN (talk) 00:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. Do you really think it should be deleted badly?? I support that we should move this project to Articles for deletion/PBS logos (7th nomination) to make it clear that this is a repeated Afd nomination even under a new name. Georgia guy (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:43, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:43, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 23:43, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, fancruft. Trivialist (talk) 03:16, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep, Article is fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.117.45 (talk) 00:11, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Above IP also deleted TheGGoose's comment, and tried to vote an additional four times: Trivialist (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spirit of Eagle (talk) 05:05, 9 October 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I originally closed as "Delete on he basis of consensus of policy-based comments." Cunard requested I reconsider, and I think it would help to have another opportunity to have a proper discussion. I may have been over-influenced by the negative effect of some  of the more useless keep comments,  I'll just strike them out.  DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep.  An AfD proposal based on bare assertion of "cruft", in the face of extensive sourcing and repeated discussions, is basically equivalent to WP:IDONTLIKEIT., who sadly seems no longer to be active on Wikipedia, made a clear case for this subject's notability at Articles for deletion/PBS idents (3rd nomination) (see also 's comment in Articles for deletion/PBS idents (2nd nomination)), and I have not seen anything in subsequent discussions that changes that. --Arxiloxos (talk) 06:28, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, it's nonencyclopedic, largely OR, and does not have enough sourcing given its length. Trivialist (talk) 14:26, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete for the fancruft and OR reasons. I don't see the point to mention such potentially unsourced facts as ten versions of the "seventh logo." Also, is there sufficient significance and notability for each version of the tv idents other than exposure to the public? TheGGoose (talk) 03:09, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep', Don't delete the article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.117.45 (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Kill it; OR and FANCRUFT. This can be summed up in one-two paragraphs in the PBS article easily; there's been two actual logos and a literal WP:WHOCARES 'it was spelled out in text because PBS didn't get a graphic machine' line. Leave it to Logopedia in their copyvio glory.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 20:48, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. Long ago, this article was nominated for Afd 6 times, and it survived them all. I don't think it will survive this Afd. I strongly support that if it doesn't, there should be information just after the sentence "The result of the debate was delete" that explains differences between now and long ago. Georgia guy (talk) 21:15, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fancruft and also insufficiently covered in third-party reliable sources to sustain an article.  Sandstein   09:58, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  DGG ( talk ) 03:30, 23 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you for relisting this AfD after my request on your talk page. Cunard (talk) 04:03, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think you made a mistake there. You should have told Cunard to go to DRV. KATMAKROFAN (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "In an attempt to forge a stronger identity for public television, the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) is replacing its familiar blue, orange and green logo with a new graphic trademark. ... The existing PBS logo, though well-established, often is the target of revealing jokes among public broadcasters. Sharon Percy Rockefeller, chairman of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, described it as 'a person looking backward, with a hole in his head, followed by BS.' ...  The old logo was created by the late Herb Lubalin, widely honored as the foremost graphic designer of his time. The new trademark, which cost PBS $35,000 plus materials, retains the strongest visual element of Lubalin's work - the stylized 'P' crafted into a profile of a TV viewer.  In the redesigned version, 'Everyman' is turned to the right, the other two initials have been eliminated and silhouettes of two additional viewers have been added."  The article notes: "Coming to a PBS station near you - perhaps as soon as the presidential inauguration - a brand-new PBS logo, the network`s first such on-air change in four years. Because the network`s new 'signature' will be attached only to new PBS- distributed programs, viewers may not get a glimpse of it until late March at the earliest or no later than May 1 - unless the network chooses to introduce the logo for upcoming live programs like the inauguration or important Senate confirmation hearings next month, as seems likely. However, local versions of the revised signature, distributed by PBS on Monday, could be available by sometime next week if stations choose to adopt them. Viewers will recognize the 'P-head,' which has survived the latest brainstorming, but the 'orange, peach and blue' of the revised logo will take a little getting used to.  A total of eight faces quickly recede into the P-head`s eye, although at first glance only three or maybe four can be picked out in the rapid computer-generated animation. ... The logo was designed and produced by Telezign of New York with the 35mm film elements shot by Fly Films; the musical signature was composed by Peter Fish of National Sound."  The article notes: "The PBS logo, long familiar on the nation's TV screens, will soon be cropping up on toys and books. Under an agreement announced last Thursday with United Media Licensing, the P-Man design and other Public Broadcasting Service trademarks will adorn selected children's products as soon as next year. Those trademarks include the P-Pal characters, variations on the P logo that resemble kids and are seen during on-air breaks in PBS children's programming. ... PBS has already joined in entrepreneurial ventures with MCI Communications, to make PBS programming and related products available on CD-ROM and through on-line computer services, and with Turner Home Entertainment to sell home videos of PBS programs. ... The two-year agreement with United Media, perhaps best-known for licensing the Peanuts characters, covers the use of the PBS brand name and trademarks on products such as computer software, educational and developmental toys, CD-ROMs, games and books."</li> <li> The article notes: "Pity poor PBS. There were protesters at the doorway, much of what it does is criticized for being as bland as congealed oatmeal, its begathons don't bring in the money of old and with its affiliated stations grubbing for every dime, it was not exactly the ideal time for PBS to spend $156,800 on that most vital of possessions. . . a new logo. ... And that logo? With the rotten economy, many public TV stations across the country have been forced to let people go, including KVIE (Channel 6) in Sacramento. Naturally PBS decides to spend $156,800 on a new 'P,' the first such change since 1989. Four years? How did they ever hold out for so long? The logo 'was updated to create a 'signature' look for public television, reflecting the warmth, humanity and the 'public' in public television.' There's also a 'P' in 'phooey' and they can have that one for free."</li> <li> The article notes: "Public broadcasting, as part of a new look it is inviting viewers to come to know, even has a new logo. Remember the little man, the 'P' in PBS? He has one eye which looks to the left. In the fall he will look to the right, become a triple image and the 'BS' will be dropped. Hardly a reason to watch PBS, but it does show that public broadcasting isn't so stuffy and tradition-bound that it can't change. Even Robert MacNeil, the PBS newsman who delivers laughs about as often as a hearse, joked about the new logo. 'B and S will not be renewed this fall,' MacNeil said, not cracking a smile, his voice as crisp as dry leaves, just as it is on the nightly 'MacNeil-Lehrer Report.' 'It has been rumored that the commercial networks may be trying to lure B and S away from public television. B and S are always in great demand.'"</li> <li> The article notes: "CIVIL WARS: Ken Burns' popular documentary 'The Civil War' has been re- released on video by Turner Home Entertainment, under the PBS Home Video logo. The title was formerly available on the Pacific Arts Video label, but last April, Pacific Arts quit the home video business -- and they blame PBS for their departure. 'It was not possible to operate the company based on the escalating demands of PBS,' Ward Sylvester, president of Pacific Arts' parent company, Nesmith Enterprises, told Video Store Magazine. Sylvester noted that PBS required Pacific Arts to provide marketing support, advance fees for producers, a 6 percent fee for use of its logo, and a 25 percent royalty to producers -- putting 'quite a burden' on videos priced to sell. Approximately 80 percent of Pacific Arts titles carried the PBS logo, although most were licensed from individual producers. PBS in turn charged that Pacific Arts did not honor these terms. 'It was uneconomic for us because they did not pay us or the producers,' the article quotes Eric Sass, senior vice-president of home-video marketing for PBS. As a result, PBS terminated the relationship -- and Pacific Arts closed up shop."</li> <li> The article notes: "Finally, PBS stations across the country get a new on-air logo and five- second animation package today - the first since 1989 and only the fourth in PBS' history, so check it out. The logo was updated to create a 'signature' look for PBS - and reflect the 'P for public' in public television. And, if you think you recognize the voice in the 'this is PBS' voice-over, you may. It's one Chris Murney, a New York actor who did the voice of Elijah Hunt Rhodes in the acclaimed PBS series, The Civil War."</li> <li> The article notes: "PBS also announced a new logo and two new programs for the upcoming 1999-2000 television season. Dragon Tales, a series based on a brother and sister's adventures with young dragons in a place called Dragon Land, is expected to debut in September. Between the Lions, scheduled for April, involves a family of lions that runs a library where books are brought to life. Accompanying these and all other PBS efforts aimed at children will be a green, circular logo, depicting a wide-eyed child with a cartoon-style 'thought bubble' overhead."</li> <li> The article notes: "The PBS logo, long familiar on the nation's TV screens, will soon be cropping up on toys and books. Under an agreement with United Media Licensing, the 'P-Man' design and other Public Broadcasting Service trademarks will adorn selected children's products as soon as next year. 'We are determined to extend the reach, the value and the power of our brand name,' said PBS President Ervin S. Duggan. ''We want the PBS logo to have the power of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.' Duggan said PBS logos will be licensed only to products consistent with the network's educational and programing standards. An advisory board, yet to be appointed, will oversee licensing activities. Revenues will be reinvested in PBS' children's programing and educational services, he said."</li> <li> The article notes: "8-8:30 (SCETV) Media Probes — Bill Blass hosts this program on 'Design,' in which viewers are reminded that virtually every object in man-made environment has been fashioned not only to serve a function but also to carry a message. An animated sequence traces the evolution of the PBS logo, designed by Herb Lubalin."</li> <li> The article notes: "Co-Branding Strategies The PBS brand became Rotenberg's mantle. Research showed that the PBS brand was exceptionally strong, and that most viewers identified their local public television stations with PBS. Stations, however, were not uniformly taking advantage of associating with the PBS brand. Indeed, a few stations, particularly the large producing stations, saw their own brands as stronger than the PBS brand. Many did not consistently use the PBS logo on the air or on any of their materials. Some stations took the spots PBS fed and replaced the PBS logo with their own station logos on the end frame. Furthermore, surveys showed that cable niche services competing with publi television had so completely branded themselves that PBS viewers were confused and actually thought that some PBS programs aired on a cable competitor. To reduce the likelihood of such confusion, PBS began following the industry practice of playing its translucent PBS logo bug on most programs. At the same time, PBS began an aggressive campaign to encourage stations to co-brand by placing the PBS 'P-head' logo alongside their own station logos in stations IDs, prime-time spots, kids' spots, pledge spots, and positioning spots, as well as in print, signage, websites, educational materials, special events, and all station efforts. Extensive use of the co-branding concept was encouraged in virtually all promotional materials, and by mid-decade PBS had persuaded most stations to adopt a co-branded bug to air on their programs (a bug combining the local and PBS-head logos). PBS now distributes various options for co-branding to stations, including several samples of how to combine the two logos, leaving it to stations to select the most suitable one for them. (Using the PBS logo alone as a bug is limited to PBS-distributed programs and materials.) A handful of stations have even changed their names to incorporate the PBS brand; for instance to PBS Hawaii, Rocky Mountain PBS, and as shown in the logos in 9.6 to Mountain PBS and Rhode Island PBS."</li> <li> The article notes: "Branding: The use of an outside creative or advertising agency and the application of a gradually increasing marketing budget. Through the use of press releases, PBS mounted a national branding campaign in the 1990s to reinforce its consistent and educationally entertaining content. PBS logos were consistently positioned beside those of local stations, with taglines such as: 'If PBS doesn't do it, who will?'"</li> <li> The book notes on page 402: "The Public Broadcasting Act was swiftly passed by Congress and signed into law by President Lyndon Johnson in 1967, and programs carrying the PBS logo began to appear in late 1969. Defined as a 'Chance for Better Television,' PBS claimed a redemptive cultural identity and cultivated an aesthetic based more on pre-electronic media such as live drama and the printed word than on contemporary TV formats. Because PBS had been created to solve a range of perceived cultural problems without fundamentally altering the economic landscape of commercial television, it could not compete for the hearts and minds of TV viewers and maintain its legitimacy." The book notes on page 400: "The U.S. public broadcasting system comprises hundreds of local stations and several large national bureaucracies. The most recognizable symbol of this labyrinth is PBS, the logo of the Public Broadcasting Service, which appears on all nationally distributed public television programs, designed so that the letters P-B-S vaguely resemble the human brain."</li> <li> The article notes: "The Public Broadcasting Service logo, long familiar on the nation's television screens, will soon be cropping up on toys and books. Under a two-year agreement announced yesterday with United Media Licensing, which is perhaps best known for licensing the 'Peanuts' comic characters, the 'P-Man' design and other PBS trademarks will adorn selected children's products as soon as next year. 'We are determined to extend the reach, the value and the power of our brand name,' said Ervin S. Duggan, the president of PBS. 'We want the PBS logo to have the power of the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.'"</li> <li> The article notes: "[Lawrence K. Grossman, president of the Public Broadcasting Service since 1976], who has had no direct experience in the TV news business, is returning to NBC, which he joined in 1962 after six years at CBS in its advertising department. At NBC, he soon caught the eye of then-NBC president Bob Kintner, rising to the post of vice president in charge of advertising at the network. He left NBC in 1966 to form a successful New York advertising agency. (The firm created the current PBS logo seen nightly on the air, one of the less important factors in the PBS board's surprise move to make him head of the public system in 1976)."</li> <li> The article notes: "The Public Broadcasting Service initially sued Nesmith and his defunct Santa Monica-based Pacific Arts Corp. over royalties from the prestigious PBS logo, which Nesmith had licensed as he began to build and distribute a video library of the network's most popular programs."</li> <li> The article notes: "Distributors of independent documentaries have other objections. Their discontent with the network goes back two years, when PBS refused to allow them to use the PBS logo when promoting work that had aired on public television. Pacific Arts Home Video, which distributes PBS Home Video, has exclusive rights to the logo."</li> <li> The article notes: "1984 Public Broadcasting System The logo for Public Broadcasting System was designed by Chermayeff and Geismar around 1984. Its predecessor used the initials 'PBS,' with the P resembling a face. The revised logo eliminates initials but retains the head and the suggestion of a P. The enlarged eye suggests that sight is the primary sense impacted by PBS programming. The multiple faces support the idea of service to the public. Like the treatment in the Girl Scouts logo, there is also a suggestion of multiculturalism because of the color change in the center face."</li> <li> The book notes: "PBS: Public Broadcasting System, the American nonprofit public television network. It is funded by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and has its quarters in Arlington, Virginia, and Burbank, California. Its logo is a black circle with stylized human profiles stacked within it."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow PBS logos to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 04:03, 23 October 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>


 * Pinging Articles for deletion/PBS idents (2nd nomination) participants who have been active in the past five years:, , , , , and . Pinging Articles for deletion/PBS idents (3rd nomination) participants: , , , and . Pinging the Articles for deletion/PBS idents (4th nomination) participant who has not commented here: .  Pinging Articles for deletion/PBS idents (5th nomination) participants: , , , , , , and .  Pinging Articles for deletion/PBS idents (6th nomination) participants: , , , and .  Cunard (talk) 04:03, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Some of the sources listed above don't apply to the article all that directly, but 1, 2, 5, and 7 do and are enough to keep this topic. Hobit (talk) 04:37, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: The main problem is that the current article is mostly descriptions of individual animations of logos, a la Closing Logos and other sites specifically for fans of such things, and doesn't fit in a general-audience encyclopedia. A paragraph or two in the main PBS article mentioning who designed the various versions of the logo would be more than sufficient. Trivialist (talk) 13:50, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how that's different than [WP:IDONTLIKEIT]] really. Sources indicate that the world has noticed it and it meets our inclusion guidelines.  WP:IAR isn't irrational here, but I don't think you are likely to build a strong enough consensus to push IAR over the line. Hobit (talk) 03:38, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Leaning Keep -- compare with Logo of NBC. This sounds like "other stuff exists" type of argument, but it does not make sense to single out PBS logos for deletion. Perhaps an overall RfC may be appropriate to gauge the consensus regarding this type of articles. I'd say, keep for now but (ideally) prune the article so that the key points do not get lost in the sea of intricate detail. K.e.coffman (talk) 09:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Not really presenting any more arguments beyond the last time I weighed in on this debate (PBS idents 4th nomination). The content needs to be slimmed down (do we really need detailed descriptions of the identification marks/animation/audio?). Keeping in mind Deletion is not cleanup, I have to ask the nominator and deletion pushers why you aren't making the effort to clean up the article. Hasteur (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Waiting to see if the article survives AFD? Trivialist (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - Cunard's sources demonstrate that this subject meets WP:GNG. Rlendog (talk) 14:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per everyone above - WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a valid reason for deletion, Might I suggest people stop renominating this - it's staying so give up, Anyway keep. – Davey 2010 Talk 00:17, 31 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep – The "fancruft" nomination and subsequent arguments for deletion based upon this notion are not guideline-based, (Fancruft is an essay), and the topic meets WP:GNG, although perhaps on a weaker level. Concerns about original research can be addressed by copy editing the article, rather than deleting it in entirety. North America1000 17:15, 31 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.