Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PWCT (programming language)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Secret account 15:21, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

PWCT (programming language)
AfDs for this article: 


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Apparently minor programming language sourced only to blog reviews and articles written by the developer. (Possible COI; article creator User:Msfclipper has only edited articles related to the work of Mahmoud Samir Fayed - namely this and Supernova (programming language).)

Prod template was removed with the rationale that the TIOBE index ranked it as the 101st most mentioned programming language online when it added it to their list earlier this month at the developer's request, but the significance of this is unclear. McGeddon (talk) 12:39, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep—Notable : PWCT is an acronym for "Programming Without Coding Technology", Google return about 212,000 results, PWCT is a Visual programming language tracked by the [| TIOBE index], | PWCT is a free open source software hosted on Sourceforge, PWCT rank in the Science & Engineering section is #3 , | over 60,000 weekly downloads , | Sourceforge : PWCT in the Top Performing Projects. Msfclipper (talk) 13:11, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 13:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 13:56, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Same lack of suitable sources to establish notability noted in the related WP:Articles for deletion/Supernova (programming language), so I won't repeat it here.  If, as I expect, consensus is to delete and Msfclipper would like to continue working on it, he should request that this article also be userfied.  Msnicki (talk) 17:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * * Keep Comment : Smart POS System developed using PWCT, Critical Nodes application developed using PWCT , Supernova programming language developed using PWCT , Somali-Quran Application developed using PWCT , Jamal TV Player developed using PWCT , PWCT is referenced from Visual programming language article , PWCT is one of the few visual programming languages tracked by TIOBE index , total files download over 6,000,000 downloads Msfclipper (talk) 17:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * PWCT Arabic Group on facebook (over 11,000 members), PWCT English group on facebook (over 2,000 members) , PWCT Page on facebook (over 2,000 likes) , Free remote learning in arabic language, Applications by students , free 113 book/tutorial in Arabic language Msfclipper (talk) 18:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * PWCT Review on sourceforge by 570 users


 * Chapter 21 in Book : Visual programming languages ISBN-13: 9781156627273Msfclipper (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * King Saud University PWCT software ISBN: 9789960559810 Msfclipper (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You only get to !vote once in an AfD, Msfclipper. If you add anything else, it should be a comment.  The fact that it's on sourceforge or that it's been downloaded a lot or even that it has a lot of likes on Facebook is unhelpful in establishing notability as defined here Wikipedia.  To establish notability here requires reliable, independent secondary sources.  We can accept nothing else.  Those sources do not appear to exist for this product.  Msnicki (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * comment Source 1, Source 2Source 3 , Source 4 , Source 5 , Source 6 , Source 7 , Source 8 , Source 9 , Source 10 , Source 11 , Source 12 , Source 13 , Source 14 , Source 15 , Source 16 , Source 17 , Source 18 , Source 19 , Source 20 , Source 21 , Source 22 , Source 23 , Source 24 , Source 25 , Source 26 , Source 27 , Source 28 , Source 29 , Source 30 , Source 31 , Source 32 , Source 33 , Source 34 , Source 35 , Source 36 , Source 37 , Source 38 , Source 39 , Source 40 , Source 41 , Source 42 , Source 43 , Source 44 , Source 45 , Source 46 , Source 47 , Source 48 , Source 49 , Source 50 , Source 51 , Source 52 , Source 53 , Source 54 , Source 55 , Source 56 , Source 57 , Source 58 , Source 59 , Source 60 , Source 61 , Source 62 , Source 63 , Source 64 , Source 65 , Source 66 , Source 67 , Source 68 , Source 69 , Source 70 , Source 71 , Source 72, Source 73 , Source 74 , Source 75 , Source 76 , Source 77


 * Sourceforge blog, TIOBE Index , Visual programming languages ISBN-13: 978115662727 and many others are reliable, independent secondary sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msfclipper (talk • contribs) 23:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, blogs and discussion board posts are what we call questionable sources. Before you post more of this unhelpful stuff, please read the guidelines.  Msnicki (talk) 00:33, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * comment The article contains only facts about free-open source software, anyone can download the software or see online movies to be sure that the content is right, no personal view, just what is the software and what are the free open source applications developed using this software. From Download statistics, Google search, the software is notable.
 * There is no real reason to delete the article, the article is around notable software and includes only facts. Wikipedians with knowledge about the subject (Visual programming languages, Software development tools and PWCT) can improve the article


 * In February 2012, King Saud University, provided a free Distance education course  around PWCT 1.8 (Smart) by the Research Chair of Pervasive and Mobile Computing in the College of computer and Information Sciences. The course content was based on Arabic Movies (12 hours). The course contains three levels, the First level was just an introduction to some of the basic programming concepts like  Variables, Control flow and Object-oriented programming.  The Second level was around developing simple  Client-server database applications and the third level was around developing database applications using PWCT Templates.


 * The free Distance education course  was provided to 126 students ., 28 students completed the course


 * Commercial database application developed using PWCT Source 1, Source 2 Msfclipper (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Another commercial database application developed using PWCT Source


 * Free open source Course Management System (Arabic) developed using PWCT [http://kutub.info/library/book/11494 Source


 * "There are several Visual Programming Languages (VPL) that help you to create software programs across many platforms without having to write a single line of code. With Visual Programming Language, a graphical interface takes over the necessity to compile code. You can now arrange, add, substitute program elements graphically. You can search the web for these types of software since there are many but there is one written in open source called PWCT which stands for “Programming Without Coding Technology”. You can get it from sourceforge.net website or do a search on PWCT then you will find it. PWCT is software made for anyone without programming skills to learn how to write general purpose programs. You can download from this website and create your own software program just by follow the instructions there.
 * However I hope that after playing with PWCT, you will find that programming is not that difficult then you will learn Java, C++, Python, and Ruby and write more code then you will like programming. " Prof. Vu (Carnegie Mellon University) profile


 * Sourceforge message (November 2013) by Daniel Hinojosa (SourceForge Community Manager), PWCT in the Top Performing Projects, Source Msfclipper (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Auditory & Visual Debugging Aids by Anders Frandsen, Michael Lisby and Rune Jensen. In page 13 Reference (7) they says Programming Without Coding Technology [7] provides a view of the state of the execution of a program at any time. Changing time is done using a timeline slider, a feature that might be feasible to implement, if a debugging tool should allow the programmer to select a specific point in time to view. Msfclipper (talk) 00:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment The TIOBE index ranked PWCT as 101 out of 228 programming languages worldwide. This ranks PWCT as #8 among  visual programming languages after Ladder logic, Scratch,  Alice,  Automator, LabVIEW, Pure Data and Max/MSP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Msfclipper (talk • contribs) 12:40, 18 November 2013
 * Delete (nonnotable advertisement) TEDickey (talk) 19:35, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Clean (No Advertisement) and Notable (It is published software that has been recognized as having historical or technical significance by reliable sources). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.57.215.5 (talk) 20:26, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin: User:212.57.215.5 appears to be User:Msfclipper rather than an uninvolved IP editor supporting the article's inclusion. (Msfclipper has claimed this IP's edits as his own in the past.) --McGeddon (talk) 11:31, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment PWCT is a visual programming language, please read this article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language then Look at PWCT as a language in the domain of visual programming languages, PWCT is notable free open source software in this domain.Msfclipper (talk) 22:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)


 * There is also an AFD at Articles_for_deletion/PWCT where this page was supposed to have been moved too but was apparently actually a copy-and-paste move. Extremely confusing! :-( 220  of  Borg 09:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a copy-paste of a two-week-old version of this article, created by User:Msfclipper with the misleading edit summary "Starting the PWCT page on Wikipedia". Msfclipper changed his mind and requested speedy deletion of it, but User:212.57.215.5 (who may or may not be the same user) then removed the speedy template and another user put it up for AfD. --McGeddon (talk) 09:47, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * My brain is starting to hurt trying to follow this. :-( I think I understand now. 220  of  Borg 09:54, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Oof! My brain is hurting, too.  User:220 of Borg, you and User:Reddogsix did not help things.  You should have simply let PWCT get speedy deleted.  I'm guessing Reddogsix did not realize that User:Msfclipper and User:Mahmoud Fayed are the same person.  Msnicki (talk) 10:01, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * :-O Excuse me, but I have not even edited the PWCT page, I commented on its talkpage, and Afd page that is all. I had no knowledge of the multiple related pages at the start. I can't see how anything I did affected that AfD in any way. 220  of  Borg 10:53, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * User:220 of Borg, you don't count this edit with the comment, "This page was NOT moved, despite what edit history says, nor is there an active AFD. Appears to have been copy-pasted to PWCT (programming language) then moved(correctly) to PWCT"? You have no idea why this was a problem or why I undid it?  Msnicki (talk) 11:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * What's happened to AGF? I Made that edit in good faith. I may have been mistaken, it seems I misinterpre[te]d the way move logs work as it seemed to me that the page had not been moved. And, when I clicked on the Afd link it did not link to this AfD and though I looked I could not find it. I did not know it was several days old. Of course you were correct to revert me. I would not have re-directed the page knowing what I know now about this AfD. I think we have all wasted far too much time on this issue. 220  of  Borg 11:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I do AGF. But I don't know how you deleted the AfD header without noticing the active AfD.  You say you clicked the link and it didn't come here.  How is that possible?  Where did it take you instead?  After I reverted your edit the link worked and it works on the version just before your edit.  I do assume good faith, but that doesn't rule out a little carelessness.  We all do that from time-to-time.  When I do that, I often hear about it.  It's not personal.  Msnicki (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I was notcareless in any way. When I clicked the link it took me to the 'main' AFD page. I have no idea why, but that is what happened. The only thing I did was redirect the 'PWCT' related page. Based on the fact that it didn't take me to an active AfD, and that the page had been 'moved' to another page, that the IP editor had been adding and removing IIRC csd/afd templates, and that 2 pages on the same topic existed, then I think you should be able to see that re-directing to the 'newer' page was the obvious thing to do with the information available to me. I would suggest that you should have taken your queries about what Reddog and I did to our talkpages, rather than a forum like AfD. Ps I checked the edit history, again (see01:47, 21 November 2013), and despite what the edit summary says the page was NOT moved. A move would have left a re-direct and there was no re-direct.220  of  Borg 01:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm not trying to beat you up. Perhaps WP was temporarily just as confused as any of us.  May suggest that it would be more helpful if you and Reddogsix would care to !vote.  I expect you both will !vote delete, but you need to say it.  Msnicki (talk) 03:22, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - Why are you telling me I did not help things, I did nothing here or on the article mentioned in this AfD, all I did was PROD another article after it was created and then AfD it after the PROD was removed. I had no idea this article existed until after I finished creating the AfD for teh other article. I did not nothing here to complicate matters.  I suggest you look closely at the article history before throwing stones.  red dog six  (talk) 14:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm probably jumping on you a little unfairly. I apologize.  I'm frustrated that I wasted about another hour on something that was already wasting more time than I had originally expected, what with having to poke through all those pointless additional "sources" User:Msfclipper kept adding.  (Yes, I did check them.  Useless blog posts and similar junk, every one of them.)  Msnicki (talk) 17:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, 20 lashes with a wet noodle.  8-)  BTW - Thanks for your work on this.    red dog six  (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete as it stands but allow creation of a replacement article that would actually describe what PWCT is, what it does, and why it is notable, using only third-party sources. At present there is a clear conflict of interest and an intention to advertise. Deb (talk) 11:25, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.