Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pacific Centennial Group


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Delete  Jody B   talk 20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Pacific Centennial Group
– (View AfD) (View log) No sources, been put up for speedy deletion twice, but I restored it after I got a message that made me think that maybe it's notable enough. Community consensus is better in this case.  Evilclown93 (talk)  20:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete While the speedy tags were clearly put up by a disgruntled customer, I think the article falls under speedy deletion. I fail to see any notability; it reads like an ad. I wonder what message you got that made you think it's notable? Could you post it? --Edokter (Talk) 21:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - no outside verification of positive or negative claims. All the Google hits point to company pages, company officers' pages, or Wikipedia, which not only erodes RS, but also leads me to question notability, because there's not even a third-party product or company review. MSJapan 21:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As a staff of this company, I understand there might be some conflict of interests of stating points. I understand where I stands hence if the community of Wikipedia feels that the article should be taken down, it should be taken down. Period. As of response to Edokter, the company received an email from National Library Board (Singapore) for nominating the company website to be archived. In the email, it states "NLB has deemed your website (URL: http://www.virtualoffice.com.sg/) to be an important part of Singapore's documentary heritage and would like it to remain available to researchers and generations of Singaporeans in the future. Hence NLB will be taking snapshots of your website under the appended terms." However, I will see to it that the article will be cleanup to fit Wikipedia's standard. As of response to MSJapan, there are no credible sources of third-party in our niche industry and as a private company, there are limitation to disclosure as there is difficulties for verification. All-in-all, there is a fine difference between fair opinion and outright vandalism. To me, a fair opinion must contain verifiable evidences or sources and not a blatant statement. In short, I understand and totally agree that we must preserve the integrity of Wikipedia and do allow me about a week to cleanup the article to make sure it's of quality & unbiased reference to the general public. Sg wiki editor 01:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - Check out traffic ranking Alexa for proof of such blatent activites of "fugged traffic" against competitor companies. Starting June 2006 there was fugged traffic and you can see a sharp increase in traffic from no where with then entrace of new competitor, http://www.smartvirtualoffice.com.sg, (compare us with them over a 3 year period and you will see the trend ) suggesting the use of "methods" to quickly gain higher position to ranking which may not be a true representation of data, and now this to try this way to get further ranking, while we would also like ourselves to be in WIKI, but we know exactly what wiki is NOT for and never fanthom the idea that we would be on WIKI. We have also conducted a search in the National Library Board website at NLB Search Sitefor this article and found nothing, search terms include fredom group, pacific, centennial, virtual office. Also to consider, if the library already archived this info, why the need to be here. I will be making a phone verification tomorrow to confirm this. Yes I am his competitor but I do think that WIKI has better purpose than this, If they are the Development Bank of Singapore, that is different, 1000s of employees with practically the whole of Singapore in it, they have a place in WIKI to inform people should they come to singapore and need a bank account. To MGJapan, I am truely sorry for having labelled his site with additional information, but we feel that it was fitting that all info regarding the company be presented. If you need proof of such history, we have verifiable sources showing his history. I use WIKI since my days during my U to hunt down words required in entomology, to find difficult to find recipies of curry i miss from home while i was in Boston studying for my degree, to get drug names found pharmaceutical companies, to learn about new discovery, and now to teach children i work with about research. I really do not want to see a great system be misused for such devious purposes. We are strictly not using this for a grudge match. We came into the picture because he decided to add our names and attacked similar competitors like ourselves. We have always though WIKI was a civilized place, dun you think so.--Smartvirtualoffice

Thank you for highlighting this I will remember this, Evilclown93, No your note about awards, for all concern, there are so many awardees each year, so should all of them come to WIKI to have a piece of the pie. What sort of ideology are you representing, Democracy? WIKI is not about democracy either. Please take your agendas else where to advertise. 2. Being featured in the National Library Board, we have been featured and invited on multiple occasions by our PM for closed door discussions lately, to help resturcture some of the Entrepreneural guidelines, do I also qualify to be put here. DO NOT throw name like the president of Singapore here and the National Library board here and expect that you will be elevated to some new level of being. WIKI is not about making you a hero, if we condone this, then everyone who shook the hand of the president of the united states with a photo will need a spot here on WIKI including my father and my mom, who incidentally did just that! You want to advertise your site, take it else where. To Evil Clown, if you have noticed, he has taken the opportunity to put links of ALL HIS related site on the page, and made attempts to quickly index that information on GOOGLE, further proving that this is strictly for SEO. I recommend the action of SPEEDY DELETION. 3. We made several calls to NLB to enquire about this heritage thing, no one knows..... if this is meant for our heritage, it should be known to as many people as possible, and I was passed around all morning from one department to the next and they no clue what this is about.
 * Keep - Using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CORP as a point of reference, I believe that Pacific Centennial Group could be notable for two reasons - 1) It has won an award from an independent organisation and of which was received from President of Singapore, and the source is credible; and 2) It has received an email from National Library Board of Singapore, noting that their corporate website will be archived as part of Singapore's online heritage. However for the 2nd reason, the source is an email and verification could only be made via forwarding of email to qualified administrator to prevent abuse. Being small isn't a problem. What's important is that the article must be independent, accurate and is notable enough. And while Wikipedia is not a business directory, commercial organisations do play a part in people's life and wikipedia users should be able to use the articles to take a neutral reference of the organization. The article must not influence the reader, positively or negatively, or directly used for advertising purpose. A proper article must be factual and provide academic insight about the subject, without distortion towards commercial agendas. I believe that the newly revised article of Pacific Centennial Group should be able to fulfills the basic expectation of an academic researcher. Lastly, based on the history of this article, it has been aggressively vandalized from open IP addresses and the edits were generalized into two classes - external link pointing to www.smartvirtualoffice.com.sg and uncivilized spams. DO NOTE THAT I'm the primary editor of this article and I'm also a staff of the company mentioned in the article. Sg wiki editor 21:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's why it should be deleted. Check out WP:COI.  Evilclown93 (talk)  22:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete The use of a public community service as your personal campaign signboard is a big NO NO. While your self rightousness of not allowing self selling on certain forums, I have a strong agenda here at WIKI. I love WIKI and use it everyday. WIKI is definately the place for you to put this. You are far better at twisting words around to make you look right. I just state facts.


 * Let me put things in perspective. I'm here to present cases of notability and its up for users to present their feedback. I would be happy if you could also present constructive feedback, but time after time, I see that you posted your opinion right on the article, of which can be clearly seen for vandalizing purpose. The links of all of our sites are to facilitate the user to quickly find the right website for reference purpose. However, you have yet again accuse us of leveraging Wikipedia for commercial purposes. Where's the proof? As for the email from National Library Board, I will present the evidence to a credible third-party for their review if necessary. Currently, I'm just presenting my case to the administrators just like a defendant. I believe I have the right to provide necessary information so that to convince the community that the article stays, but I also believe that if the community of wiki admins still feel uncomfortable and taken the article off, I will not challenge.

Based on your statement, you claimed that we abuse Wikipedia for our own commercial gains. You also claimed that we made attempts to quickly index the information on Google. On other articles, you also claimed of traffic spikes on Alexa. Seriously, Wikipedia did send people to our site. But which article don't? Also, on what evidence you have to show that we index the information on Google? As for Alexa, that's just our estimated traffic pattern. End of the day, it is well-known that Google has its own algorithm for indexing and that Alexa lacks of accuracy due to browser dependence. It seems that you just taking pot-shots to keep us busy in giving our evidence and presenting our case. However, the ball is back in your court now - What's evidence do you have for whatever you had claimed? For example, you claimed that certain staffs of NLB don't know about the archiving of websites. While there may be possibility that I lied, there is possibility that the archiving is known to just a department which they didn't know was handling the project. It is of no surprise in large organisations where disparate departments don't really know who does what. Still, I have the email for this and as mentioned, I will present it as an evidence to wiki admins if necessary.

While you claimed to be helping Wikipedia, your actions do not seems to be so. And while you claimed that it is because you want people to know the truth, the previous edits were in the largely in nature of malicious purposes. The difference between "THIS PROVIDER HAS MOVED 3 TIMES!" and "Previous Locations of Pacific Centennial Group" is that the former is for spiteful purpose and the latter is for users to understand more and draw their own conclusion. I deleted your opinions on the article because it was not factual and doesn't have reasonable evidence. And if you claimed that you have the interests of Wikipedia at heart, you should help to cleanup the article or recommend for speedy deletion, and not taking law in your own hands. If you believe that we moved 3 times (we actually moved twice) or increased our prices, then do add them appropriately like "Previous Location" or "Previous Packages & Pricing".

I seen how MSJapan, Evilclown and several other administrators work and their explanation were largely inline with the policies of Wikipedia. Evilclown made the decision that the article may be notable but because I'm a direct staff of the company, I maybe in conflict of interest. I could have lied on that so save that article, but I believe that honesty is far more important. If Wikipedia don't accept the article now and delete off, I will put it more effort to make it more notable and hopefully in the future, someone else would recognized us and put us up again.Sg wiki editor 17:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, here are an article which could resolve this situation - Resolving Dispute. I seek your co-operation in abiding to this official policy during your replies. Should you feel that the articles lack of certain information, I will be pleased to amend and include them with either citation or references from RS.

BTW also, we may still proceed to file a report to the police or engage a lawyer for those edits that was vandalized for malicious purpose. Since you claimed that it was not from you and was from your customers, I seek your co-operation to inform that customers of our course of action. However, if it was really from you, I hope that you could stop these nonsense. Seriously, a man must have courage to admit their wrongdoing. If wrong, then just apologize. Likewise, if after the police investigation has completed and the vandalism was not from you, I will issue an official apology with a reasonable compensation.

In short, I hope to settle this amicably, sincerely and honestly. Sg wiki editor 17:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking about notability. Being notable also depends on the targeted audience. Taken for example - a famous jazz bar at Orchard Road. For a person who want to research about Singapore, this article is not notable. For a person who want to know about Orchard Road, it may be notable. For a person who want to know what famous places of entertainment at Orchard Road, Singapore, this article is highly relevant. I think the best question to ask is - "Why Bother?" Why should users bother about Pacific Centennial Group and what it does? Seriously, if I am just a typical user, I would probably think of that "Why Should I Bother About This Company?. There's tons of article. Is it worthy enough? From this point, another way to establish its notability is industry recognition. Let's just say that in 100 years time, if someone want to do a research on virtual office industry in 21st century, will the article provide any critical information? Is the company recognized within the industry? If the article is removed, will it impact the general view of the industry? Fundamentally, all these still depends on the user. Sg wiki editor 18:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * After some thoughts, I think the article should be deleted. Here's my explanation:

- First of all, I had reasoned that being notable is about being recognized by the industry. While it maybe true that Pacific Centennial Group is recognized, by itself may not be sufficient to be listed. I came to this conclusion after reading a magazine and was looking through the advertisements. Each of the company has its importance in the industry they are in. However, it would be nuts if I say all of these companies will be recognized within in their own industry. For example, if we think about burgers - we think about McDonalds, Burger King or even White Castle. That is what most people will know about burgers. Would people care if there is a guy who is famous for grilling delicious burger? Will people have a difference opinion about burgers if this guy is gone?

- Second, I was thinking through the comments of some users. Would its article add value to the user? Did Pacific Centennial Group founded something? Invented something? Created something unique? Vastly improved the industry? Yes, it did win awards and maybe recognized by the National Library Board. But will that be relevant to someone who want to research about the virtual office industry of Singapore?

- Third, I'm a staff of Pacific Centennial Group. While my reasoning may have its merit, it is simply not wise (recommended) that I should edit this article. Even if I want to achieve neutrality, readers may be skeptic about the accuracy of the article and that defeat the entire purpose. Likewise I know that the article is created by the staffs of that company, I would certainly have some doubt about the accuracy and NPOV.

Eventually after these thoughts, if unless someone could prove otherwise (I would be glad though), I hope that the article to be removed within these few days. Also, while I might not really like the tone of this smartvirtualoffice user, I think some of his comments have certain merits and has successfully challenged my thoughts. But still, I do not condone his methods of vandalizing the article. Sg wiki editor 19:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I dun think I need to say that much. Peter Tan Jun Long, you are not any where near as noble as you present yourself to be. 1. In Wiki, when we added our links as alternative, you could not stand that could you. 2. We feel you have vandalized WIKI, and would consider putting that up in a police report as well.. 3. We feel you are a man with many double standards, especially when it comes to treatment. You think you run the Virtual Office Scene, think again. Regus and Servcorp with many offices worldwide does not have to win awards to be placed here. Signature space with more offices around does not have a 4. ALL ADMINSTRATORS now want your site deleted, do you agree it needs to be? That's why it should be deleted. Check out WP:COI. Evilclown93(talk) 22:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC). You keep stressing how great the company is, we are arguing on very different terms. 2 ADMINISTRATORS have made their case to have your site deleted. This time, it is not ME who says delete and you still do not want to, that says a lot about you. While you took pot shots at us way back in 2006, no one agreed or disagreed with you, this time ADMINSTRATORS are telling you to delete. I may be adding fuel to the fire, but fact stands that you need to be deleted. I am sure you will want the last words on this and you will go into lengthy explaination as to why you are the best and need to be here because you won an award that was voted and INTERVIEWED by students who are naive and took a medal with SR Nathan, so what....


 * Please include your name when adding comments. By the way, my name is not Peter Tan Jun Long.

1) You add a link which doesn't relate to the article but just for the purpose of luring readers to your site. Anyway, you mentioned before that the links were from your customers and not from you. Now you said that it was you who added the links. Contradicting.

2) Feel free to put up a police report if you think it's necessary or valid.

3) When you mentioned double standard, in which circumstance did I show that I have such a behavior? Did I mentioned that my article should be placed up and other people's articles shouldn't be place? It seems that to you, deleting away your biased opinion is double-standard. I deleted because it is not factual. That's all. Also, I have never once in Wikipedia dispute your claims on your company, whether your parents shake hands with US President, or whatever.

4) Yes, most administrators feel that the article should be taken off. I never claimed that the company is great. I only present evidences that I believe the article has certain notable values and hopefully that the administrators could evaluate. Also, I never hide behind any other usernames or IP addresses to disguise my relationship with the company. As for Spirit of Enterprise, I think you have no clue on how it works. Companies are nominated for SOE award and are interviewed by tertiary students. SOE has a Board of Governors who determine whether if the company should win the award, and these Board of Governors includes experienced businessmen or professionals. Award winners are also co-determined by public voting too. And whether if we receive an award from Mr. SR Nathan, President of Singapore, it is just a factual statement (just like stating that our office is located in Robinson Road). We didn't spin any stories but I guess that my previous statement of "one of the leading..." may not be proper and feels a little advertorial. That is why I clean-up the article to be more factual and removed statements that I have no concrete evidences.

I'm not here to claim how noble I am. I'm not. All I trying to do is to place an article and present the evidences to show its notability. Throughout these times, I begin to read up on Wikipedia policies and try to figure whether if the article has complied with the given guidelines. The more I read the more it becomes clear that the article has both its merits and demerits. While I still believe that the article is notable and neutral (merits), after careful thoughts I feel that there were two critical issues - I'm the staff of the article's mentioned company (COI) and that the company may yet to become a valuable study in the field of virtual office industry (demerits). That's why even I think the article should be deleted, but in a more civil and analytical way.

Anyway, don't be that spiteful. If you really care for Wikipedia and wish to police around, do use the time to help clear up the loadful of articles that wait to be clean-up. Don't forget to add you name. Sg wiki editor 16:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Lets start with yours... --202.55.71.12 17:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Singapore-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 14:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. per WP:COI. However, that said, well done to Sg wiki editor for being open about potential conflict of interest and to Evilclown93 (sorry for the vanilla sig) for bringing it to AfD - gotta love the transparency all round :) Paxse 13:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.