Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pact of Vengeance


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was draftify. , you may want to take a look at WP:BLUDGEON.  Sandstein  16:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Pact of Vengeance

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Sources fail WP:NFILM and WP:GNG. –– FormalDude   talk   06:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and United States of America. –– FormalDude    talk   06:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin - If by chance this film page is considered for deletion based on the consensus could we please just re-direct it to Leo Fong thus preserving the history etc. and then at another time we'll spark things up. Many thanks Karl Twist (talk) 09:13, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - I think the film is notable enough. There's been a fair bit of work done on this by mainly 2 editors> even though I'm not in a agreement with how the other main editor has done things, I still note the effort!. As the film has already made some waves and been noted in the right places and was only released this month, it will go on to achieve much more cult status. I can guarantee this. Leo Fong aka Mr. Low Blow was a cult figure in B grade and guerilla filmmaking. Len Kabasinski is too. Due to the fact that this is Leo Fong's last film and he died early this year on 18th of February, I can see the attention on this film already. Thanks. Karl Twist (talk) 09:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Being potentially notable in the future is not sufficient. Moving to draftspace would likely be the best choice if that is the case. –– FormalDude   talk   09:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Reply I disagree, there's already a history with a lot of work by 2 editors. Even if the article page here is found to be not notable, 3 other editors have made edits . There's a lot of history. Many pages, much of them films are redirected to another page. There are also other articles that reference the film. Best to preserve history, put a note on the redirection page that there should be a discussion first before the page is taken off re-direct. That's the way to do it! Karl Twist (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A move to draftspace also preserves the history of the page, but I'm not opposed to a redirect. –– FormalDude   talk   11:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Draftify / Redirect, as was my original intent when I reviewed this at NPP, but this was refused, so now we're here. WP:TOOSOON, only one possible limited release at a film festival next month, no independent critics reviews - the only people who have seen the film so far are sponsors. Heck, my pup has had a few films show up at local film festivals. This one's 90 miles from where it was shot.  AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 04:49, 19 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Reply to the above - From what I can see, it's made a fair bit of commotion and there's an article about it in a magazine. Yes, it was only released this month and with a slot in a Fest next month and others, it will be easily be going the same way of Challenge of Five Gauntlets and with Leo Fong's death passing it. I have already said that it should stay but for what ever reason it comes to the crunch, then a redirect for the present. It's pointless putting it into draft as there are already multiple notable articles that link to it and the re-direction to Leo Fong the section can be expanded there as well.

Not sure what 90 miles have to do with this or your pup. Throw it in if you want but it doesn't lessen anything. Now, if we were talking about cats? They can play piano. Karl Twist (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm just trying to get the film notability above WP:MILL / WP:HOLE and the millions of videos. When it reaches multiple film festivals and not just the nearest one. This is similar to voice actor convention appearances where the person just travels to the one within driving distance for the day, or when a garage band gets a gig at a county/state music festival a few hours away. AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 15:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Reply to the above - Oh I think it's above  WP:MILL / WP:HOLE . It's been mentioned in this early time on the necessary sites. Well more than a great deal of other films here on Wikipedia. A film fest of lack of one doesn't lessen the value.  Karl Twist (talk) 11:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment - So below is what the page looked like when I had edited before the other editor came in. Here and below

And this is what it looks like now, here and below

With both of them, they have much more refs than a great amount of movies here. I believe it scrapes in. Karl Twist (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 17:51, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I had to change some of the markup, as it was messing with the way this nomination was being displayed at AfD and the deletion sorting locations. It's generally better to just show page history diffs than post the content verbatim for this reason, although I can understand why you did this. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  12:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   07:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm the "other editor" in question. AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 15:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Draftify at the most per 's reasoning. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 14:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Reply to above,
 * Dear XtraJovial, I don't see what logical reasoning AngusWOOF has provided. First of all the film with its actors cannot be considered one of the many that get put out. Len Kabasinski's co-star Leo Fong is well-known as a cult B-grade actor. He has acted with Butz Aquino, Charlie Davao, Tony Ferrer, Darnell Garcia, Philip Baker Hall, Hope Holiday, James Lew, D'Urville Martin, Cameron Mitchell, Richard Norton, Stack Pierce, Chanda Romero, Richard Roundtree,  Vic Silayan, Fred Williamson and more. With the supporting actors in Pact of Vengeance such as Jon Mikl Thor, Diamante, Peter Avalon, and appearances by PB Smooth and Matt Hannon, this can't be as non-mentionable as our fellow Wikipedia editor appears to think it is.
 * Even before release
 * Even though the film hasn't been released on dvd yet, the anticipation ((Part of the appeal is that it is Leo Fong's final role)) and the fact that it has been noticed by Voices From The Balcony and reviewed on July 9, 2022, reviewed by Bands about Movies, reviewed by Ozone Nightmare,  picked up by Horror News], noted on PW Mania in an article about PB Smooth, noted on Classic Rock Louder Sound site in the Louder Sound "Thor: the incredible story of 80s metal’s mightiest hero" article, and the Brave Words & Bloody Knuckles site article about Thor, in the "THOR UNITES WITH SOILWORK’S BJÖRN “SPEED” STRID ON NEW SINGLE "NIFLHEL (REALM OF THE DEAD)" article, it's got to be something other than what AngusWOOF's reasoning and determination comes to. So the film is noted in Wrestling, Music (Heavy Metal) and Horror sites all credible referencing.
 * Also
 * Well, its release is noted on AV Club, Radio Times, The Action Elite. Len Kabasinski's interview by Salty Nerd on Anchor.fm is worth listening to as well.
 * Not wanting to flood the page, I will leave it here. Karl Twist (talk) 09:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * As discussed on the draft talk page, AV Club, Action Elite, Radio Times are just supplying IMDb database information about the film. Radio Times even says it's pulling its info from IMDb. Action Elite is just reprinting the trailer summary and the posters. So at this point they are contributing nothing towards notability. When AV Club or Radio Times puts out a real review from a critic, then you can revisit.  AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 15:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know - I think WP:TOOSOON and the lack of independent reviews are logical reasons for draftification. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 20:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Draftify The film will most likely pass notability guidelines upon release, but as of now it does not. Donald D23   talk to me  13:42, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Well if the consensus leans away from a keep, why not just have it on re-direct? It is pointless having it on draft. It should be a working link. There's no sensible reason given to have it on draftify as opposed to a re-direct. Karl Twist (talk) 05:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The reason would be that the draft can continue to be improved upon with these newer sources, ideally, more post-release critics reviews and reception / future screenings and video release.  Ozone Nightmare is a critics review from a Patreon sponsor.   Horror News article was just a preview based on the trailer, and PW Mania spotlighted the one wrestler who had a bit role in the film. Louder than Sound focused on a single band that contributed a track to the film. These aren't really significant coverage from independent reliable sources.  AngusW🐶🐶F  ( bark  •  sniff ) 15:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Reply to AngusWOOF, well there's more to the film than just the Ozone Nightmare review or the Horror News review and PW Mania mentioning " one wrestler who had a bit role in the film" or "Louder than Sound focused on a single band that contributed a track to the film". You appear to be a bit selective on how you are trying to make a case. There's much more to this film as I have stated. And there's also the Cinecutre review on  December 8, 2022 - ¡LO NUEVO DE LEN KABASINSKI!: Trailer de “Pact of Vengeance” con Leo Fong y Jon Mikl Thor. por Xabier Esquíroz. Tailer reviews or film reviews or whatever, the anticipation has been noted.  If the closing admin's decision leans away from a Keep then the sensible thing to do is have it on re-direct to Leo Fong. There is a Work with Len Kabasinski subsection there. At present and in addition to Leo Fong's page there are the Jon Mikl Thor, Diamante, PB Smooth and Matt Hannon pages that link to it so far. So we have working links to that page! Better to redirect if the consensus is not keep. This is what happens with many films etc. Karl Twist (talk) 09:19, 31 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.