Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Painful Maturity


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Painful Maturity

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Contested prod. Stub about a South Korean film with no references other than IMDB and no assertion of notability. Delete.  Blanchardb - Me•MyEars•MyMouth - timed 17:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Also nominating, the article about the director of said movie.


 * Delete both -- No notability established, only source is IMBD, which does not meet WP:RS standards. DreamGuy (talk) 20:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete both — No assertion of notability. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC))
 * Keep - Meets criteria for WP:Creative. He is a very notable South Korean screen writer. I have added his filmography to the article which demonstrates that he has over two dozen credits as a screen writer. Most 3rd party references are in South Korean, so difficult to find English references to link to. Wordssuch (talk) 05:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have any sources showing that these credits are to notable productions? Lots of indie screenwriters self produce small films. And IMDB filmographies are not reliable sources, as anyone can edit them. There have been many cases of peole editing their own listings to add things that do not exist. We would need independent sources. DreamGuy (talk) 14:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  —PC78 (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions.  —PC78 (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Extreme keep and fuyrther source per per, , and . And, in the interests of reducing anglo-centricism on wikipedia, it would be great to have a Korean-reading wikipedian take a look at 아픈 성숙 in Google News, Google books, and Google scholar. Not being sourced is a concernm but when such is easily available, it is no reason to delete.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 19:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes-- Park Chul-soo is a major Korean director, and I'm sure their is information out there about this film. I'm far from fluent, but can get by in Korean, and will add what I can later on. Dekkappai (talk) 19:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Film article: Keep; Kang Dae-ha: Neutral . About the film: This is a case of an article on a "notable" subject started prematurely. I believe there is sourcing to be found on the subject-- highly likely in print, in Korean-- but because of the nature of the subject, it is going to be very difficult to find. It is unfair to expect an equal level of available sourcing from the latest U.S. blockbuster and a 30-year-old early film from a major director in a country whose cinema was, basically, closed to the rest of the world at the time, and would remain so for another decade and a half. I've looked around online and can't find much, but have added some to the article. Still, Park Chul-soo is a very important South Korean film director. Though this is one of his earlier and lesser-known films, the entire output of major directors should have some coverage. Some indications of Park's stature in Korean cinema: His films were chosen as the best film of the year at the Grand Bell Awards (South Korea's nearest equivalent to the U.S. Academy Awards) two years in a row-- 1985 and 1986. Park's film 301, 302 was South Korea's submission to the US academy awards in 1995, and, according to this interview with the director, it was the first South Korean film to receive international release. In 1999 the Korea Film Directors' Society gave Park the Best Director prize for Kazoku Cinema at their Chunsa Film Art Awards. As a sign that he's been an important director for decades now-- Green Chair (2005) is a more recent significant film from Park, shown in international film festivals-- Sundance, Berlin Film Festival... I know some will scoff, thump the latest Wikipedia "notability" guidelines and quote them by verse and scripture, and damn this film as not meeting standards created by (mainly) U.S., English-speaking editors. But when sourcing for even the most minor and ephemeral of current U.S. films is so easy to find, and yet it is nearly impossible to find for even major Korean films from a few decades ago, I believe that applying such "notability" guidelines "equally" would result in an extremely biased coverage of world cinema. Dekkappai (talk) 06:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No notability standard requires English-language sources or full text available online. Do you have some sources for the Grand Bell Awards nominations/wins, to make the director's article a clear-cut case? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Koreanfilm.org (run since 1999 by Darcy Paquet, who was (is?) Variety's South Korean reporter, put together this Excel file note, under the Grand Bell Awards tag: "1985, 24th: The Mother (dir. Park Chul-soo), Hwang Ki-sung Productions" and "1986, 25th: Pillar of Mist (dir. Park Chul-soo), Hwang Ki-sung Productions"). has a listing of major South Korean film awards at the back of the book (I don't have a copy of it in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it lists up to 1986 or '87). Though IMDb doesn't list the awards for those particular years, it does show that Park won an award at the Montréal World Film Festival.  The KMDb listing for 어미 (1985) (Eomi - Mother) directed by Park Cheol-soo (감독 : 박철수) shows it won the award (제24회 대종상 영화제 (1985)  ), and 안개기둥 (1986), directed by Park won 제25회 대종상 영화제 (1986). Their listing for Park also gives several other awards including several PaekSang Arts Awards (백상예술대상)
 * 1980년
 * 제16회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 신인상 (밤이면 내리는 비)
 * 1988년
 * 제24회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 감독상 (접시꽃 당신)
 * 1994년
 * 제18회 황금촬영상 시상식 : 감독상 (우리 시대의 사랑)
 * 1996년
 * 제32회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 대상 (학생부군신위)
 * 제32회 백상예술대상 : 영화부문 감독상 (학생부군신위)
 * etc... could probably track down more, later, but have to run now. Let's just pray Park doesn't turn out to have a performing twin. ;) Dekkappai (talk) 13:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I've got my copy of The History of Korean Cinema here now. On Park Chol-su: Park's films winning the 1985 and 1986 Grand Bell is listed on page 278. Park and these two films are mentioned in the section "New Directors inthe 1980s" on p. 248. Also, in a profile of the director on page 330, it mentions that he won the New Director Award at the Hankuk Play and Film Arts Awards with his first feature (1979), and lists The Painful Maturity as one of his principal films. (Also, it might be worth mentioning that the KMDb cited above is not just the Korean equivalent of IMDb. It's an official national site maintained by the Korean Film Archive.) Dekkappai (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 02:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep the film for now, as Dekkappai has turned up some decent sources to start writing a proper article. I'm ambivalent about Kang Dae-ha; it's an unsourced BLP but it has possibility. Keep the director's article as well. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Changing from Neutral on Kang Dae-ha to Keep. I didn't know the name, but apparently he's not "just" a screenwriter, he's directed several films, written 500 screenplays, and apparently was publishing works on literature in the '60s. I'm getting this from KMDb (again, an official site of the Korean Film Archive-- affiliated with the South Korean government). Korean cinema is still lacking articles on many major films and persons, and Kang is obviously not as "notable" (at least within film) as Park Cheol-su, but still seems worthy of an article, and since one is started there's no point in deleting it now... I'll do what work I can on it later. Dekkappai (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both Kang Dae-ha and the film articles. I can find two news articles on Kang's career as a poet (he was a versatile artist) and among his prolific works (wrote about 50 screenplays), screenplays for hit-dramas in 80s are included. On the other hand, the starred actors and actresses Yu In-chon, Yoon Il-bong, Jeong Hye-seon are still notable figure in Korean film/drama industry. (Yu In-chon is the current minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism of South Korea, ah..I have to create an article of him too). I think the notability is confirmed so far. --Caspian blue 00:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * keep. I think, that the film is important because its director Park Chul-soo is very notable film director. --Snek01 (talk) 22:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.