Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete as failing WP:RS, and therefore failing WP:V and WP:N. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Qualify as WP:OR and Wikipedia is not a Genealogical entry directory. Thanks. Avinesh Jose  T  09:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related page because [as mentioned above]:


 * Note: This debate has been included in WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/India. -- Avinesh Jose   T  09:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.   —Tinucherian (talk) 06:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [Tinucherian] : I ,Creator of the articles propose to sorting by Deletion sorting/Christianity, as The history of Pakalomattom is very much related to Indian Christianity and history - Seeking wider audience for unbiased opinions - Tinucherian (talk) 06:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Tinucherian (talk) 10:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly Keep (Creator of the articles), I am denying / defending aganist the argument of WP:OR/NOR by the nominator as the contents are verifiable by lots of references given below . Requesting to Kindly Keep these pages.

I belive the notability / verfibility and importance of the article on Pakalomattom family is proved by the below details given.

Some of the Notable Pakalomattom family members in Wikipedia


 * Mar Thoma I His Grace Mar Thoma I Metropolitan first metropolitan bishop of the Indian Mar Thoma Church


 * Palakunnathu Mathews Mar Athanasios of the East] 1818-1877), was the head of Malankara Church which had its adherents in Travancore. Cochin and Malabar, states of India.


 * Abraham Malpan ,(1795- i845), was a distinguished reformer of the Malankara St.Thomas Suryani Church in Kerala, India


 * Mar_Thoma_II


 * Mar Thoma III


 * Mar Thoma V


 * Mar_Thoma_VI


 * Mar_Thoma_VII


 * Mar Thoma VIII


 * Mar Thoma IX


 * Cherian Philip Politician of India.


 * K. V. Simon (1883 - 1944) was a very famous Christian poet writing in Malayalam

References to Pakalomattom family are made in many other Wikipedia articles.

A few of them are :-


 * Nedumpally, Arattupuzha , Orethu Family , Saint_Thomas_Christians , Marth Mariam Church Kandanad– Ernakulam ,Archdeacon , Thomas the Apostle , Buddhism and Christianity

Internet References : Searching the Internet you will find thousands of articles relating to Pakalomattom / Pakalomattam family.Some of them are


 * http://www.indianchristianity.org/orthodox/forefathers.html


 * http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=


 * http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/family.htm


 * http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/heritage.htm


 * http://www.ayrookuzhiyil.org/
 * http://www.pakalomattamfamily.org/


 * http://www.indianembassy.org/new/NewDelhiPressFile/kerala_christianity.html


 * http://www.keralachurch.com/main_left_right.php?cmd=keralachristianity


 * http://sankaramangalamfamilyassociation.org/sankaramangalam_%20history.html


 * http://www.ponnattu.com/


 * http://groups.msn.com/tkkudumbayogam/


 * http://www.palakunnathu.org/history.html


 * http://www.saintgregorios.org/PARUMALA/History.htm


 * www.stgoc.org/files/ChurchHistory.pdf


 * http://www.gsbkerala.com/christ/christian.htm


 * http://www.poozhikala.org/Pages/History.asp


 * http://www.adangapurathu.com/history_1.htm


 * http://nasrani.net/2007/06/14/the-tomb-of-archdeacons-kuravilangadu/


 * http://syriacchristianity.org/bio/Pulikottil_I.htm


 * http://www.syrianchurch.org/MalankaraSyrianChurch/MalankaraHistory.htm

Note : References of books can also be given upon request or if needed.

Tinucherian (talk) 07:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment The above article is a history itself . Please refer to also Pakalomattom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.163.178.119 (talk) 11:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)  Note for closing admin: this user appears to be
 * [Tinucherian]] Yes. This is me only. It happened because i was logged off automatically while writing this statement. Tinucherian (talk) 04:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:OR, WP:TONE, WP:N and WP:V. I tagged the secondary page 5 months ago now, and upon my tagging, the user Tinucherian removed the tags. I then restored them. The same action was taken upon the AFD being listed. I believe there is a place for these articles, but in no way in the way they are right now do they warrant a place on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a collection of information of original thought. Since I tagged the page, no efforts have been made by the page's creators to improve the matters addressed, which I listed in detail on the talk page. Since there's an obvious lack of intention to bring the article inline with Wiki standards, I see no choice but to support deletion. -- rm 'w a vu  11:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete unless sourced. The article is completely unsourced.  I have blanked most of it as a copyvio - it is lifted verbatim from a site that does not give a free license to Wikipedia - see http://www.ayrookuzhiyil.org/copyright.html.  The material I deleted would be inappropriate for Wikipedia even if free as utterly unsourced and completely unencyclopedic in tone, structure, and content.  However, (changing opinion - see below) the little I did leave would make an acceptable stub if it could be verified.Wikidemo (talk) 11:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [Tinucherian] :  I don't believe there is any copyright issues. I am the same author and the webmaster of the above said website and I have given rights for the content to be used in Wikipedia. Requesting Wikidemo to kindly revert the changes he had made until a consensus is made by Wikipedia community. 


 * Tinucherian (talk) 07:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Note - all four "keep" opinions to date seem to have been offered by a single editor, the creator of the page. Wikidemo (talk) 21:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [Tinucherian] : '' I reduced to only one Keep statement from me. Tinucherian (talk) 04:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to Keep now that the article in this version is sourced and more encyclopedic. It still has a number of issues, and there seems to have been a lot of weirdness and gaming of this AfD.  But that is not relevant to a decision to keep or delete.  Assuming the offline sources given are legitimate and support the claims made, there is some real content there now, the subject seems to be notable, and the revised article overall is well beyond the threshold at which we would delete an article.  Wikidemo (talk) 01:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete source it or lose it. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  12:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment (by nominator) The page size has been reduced to 1.7 mb now (it was 6.5 mb) by user:Tinucherian. Thanks. -- Avinesh Jose  T  12:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [Tinucherian] It was not done by me. I was done by one of the Admins ,Wikidemo. Requesting to Kindly restore it until the review is over. Tinucherian (talk) 05:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Dear good admins, Before you make prejudiced movement for deletion, I request your kind attention of past record of the nominator User:Avineshjose who had been doing all these.

(removed bad faith personal attack, which has no place in an afd discussion) - Wikidemo (talk) 10:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * [Tinucherian] Apologies if anyone is offended Tinucherian (talk) 04:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Tinu, Can I point you o WP:CIVILITY. Youre comments here are very inflammatory towards Avin, calling him/her "cheap", calling his/her contributions "atrocities" and saying that he was in breach of WP:CANVAS, saying he was on an "advertising spree". This discussion is inappropriate for an AfD and trying to discredit one user who nominated an article doesn't turn the discussion around and suddenly improve the article or give it any sense of validity. It simply gives potential for people to give less creedance to a user, which is unfair as nobody is doing that to you. Any lack of credibility that you have garnered is purely by the actions you've taken in this discussion, and previous related discussions. I encourage you to work on these articles to try and achieve a high quality standard with original work based on secondary sources, not original research and not information directly copied from their respective sources. That is how Wikipedia has come into being, and I'd encourage you to redeem yourself and the articles by making them fit the mould. Maybe have a look at articles of a similar nature and see how they're structured, how the prose is written and how much content to leave in and more importantly, what's not notable enough to keep in there (listing ALL of the Pakalo families is a bit much; maybe list half a dozen of those who're highly notable, like famous people, or highly altruistic or those who're infamous, for one reason or another). If you find you could create this article in that way and provide several different sources that confirm each article of information within it, then it's worth keeping. Until then, this article has no place on Wikipedia. -- rm 'w a vu  10:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi all,


 * I do accept my language is a bit inflammatory . But i hope you understand the frustration of a newbie Wikipedian who just loves wikipedia and is severly bitten by someone whose credibility is itself is in question whether he is doing so in good faith!

Comment I stand by my request to keep my two articles Pakalomattom and Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil on Wikipedia. A simple search on wikipedia itself will refer to the importance of these articles [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=pakalomattom&fulltext=Search]

This will help you understand the highly notability of Pakalomatton family members in India. A search of Pakalomattom on Google gave a whooping 1680 results !!! http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS225IN230&q=pakalomattom+&btnG=Search Hope i have proved my point !!! Tinucherian (talk) 11:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * When I search my surname, Maurice, I achieve 67,500,000 google results. When I look at the page, it's simply a disambiguatio page to around 25 - 35 people on Wikipedia. There's no history indicated as to where they came from, how they came from northern Africa and ploughed through Spain only to settle in France and try to convert French people to Islam, but were not successful. In fact, I would venture a guess that there's no version of that story told on Wikipedia, despite being a factual occurrence (with lots of omissions, mind you). This obviously affected everything to do with my bloodline, but I'm content with the story not being told here, because the fact is, it's not globally noteworthy. It didn't have a profound effect on the world and still doesn't, and ilkely never will. There are wikia that are designed for giving genealogical family history, but this is not one. -- rm 'w a vu  13:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply A quality of a good internet user is the ability to identify and narrow down to what is a good and relavant search engine result. Trying to search my surname cherian gave 320,000 results. that doesnt mean cherian is unique to cherian i am looking to search. Try search for napoleon bonaparte it gives 382,000 results, but you know there can be only one and only napoleon bonaparte !!! The same holds for the keyword Pakalomattom !!! I hereby iterate the fact all the Pakalomattom in wiki all related to same Pakalomattom. Please try do some research before giving any assumptions.

I request you kindly to consult anyone who have expertise in Indian church history to contributions of Pakalomattom / Pakolomattam family.

Tinucherian (talk) 17:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment My sincere Apologies if I have/had offended anyone by my remarks. I was carried away by the feelings that the articles I have started, and which i believe is good enough to be in wiki, is being deleted. I request the kind admins and wikipedians to give a reasonable opinion based on the evidences I have put forward here. I will continue to contribute with my humble works in future also to the betterment of Wikipedia.

Tinucherian (talk) 07:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Keep The content of the 2 articles seems to be encyclopedic in nature and holds good to be on Wikipedia. The history of Pakalomattom familes is well known in and Kerala and india .Tibutibu (talk) 09:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Note to the closing crat or admin: Tibutibu has only one edit: this one. It's likely this is sock puppetry. I don't wish to assert who I believe is doing this, but if a checkuser would check, I believe we'll find that it's an established user trying to bolster !votes, or even a meatpuppet. -- rm 'w a vu  09:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * [Tinucherian] If this entry is suspected to be a sock puppet, Kindly do the needful to verify so that it leaves no room for doubt!!! Admins , please verify the IP and location. Tinucherian (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Keep this site, Pakalomattom familes is well known in and Kerala and india, and also Pakalomattom familes is a strong part of Christian history of Kerala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomasdanielreji (talk • contribs) 10:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC) — Thomasdanielreji (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strongly keep this site. A well known family from Kerala in India that has a prominent part in Christian history of that state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.102.0.108 (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, if it hasn't entered into any reference in Malayalam (it hasn't) it simply is beyond the pale of notability. 14:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.37 (talk)  — 59.91.253.37 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * [Tinucherian] Please Tell me how do you want references in Malayalam ??
 * Tinucherian (talk) 14:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.215.169 (talk) 17:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC) Pakalomattom familes are one of the ancient families of Kerala. Its history and contributions to Indian christianity is well known. Admins should take the help of someone who has expertise in indian christianity before taking any further action. - Ginu George, Kuwait —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.215.169 (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)  — 78.154.215.169 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strongly keep Pakalomattom Family has a great tradition and grapevine spread all over the World, It has links to many who are emotionally attached to the details provided herin, hence "Strongly Keep" Thomas Philip (Filgy), Bangalore

Strongly keep Pakalomattom is an ancient, kerala-based Christian family with deep-rooted history and tradition and that's what the wiki illustrates. Hence "stronly keep" Ajit Mathew, London —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.246.143 (talk) 19:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)  — 86.21.246.143 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strongly keep I would like to put in my two cents and say you'all should keep these articles in the wikipedia. Samuel (talk) 00:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Strongly keep. Pakalomattom is a long-established Christian family line in Kerala. The information in this wiki is highly relevant to all those who might want to research Christian families engaged in Church history in Kerala, India. It would be plain wrong to delete such information from Wikipedia. Ravi Arapurakal (Arapurakal), Princeton, NJ USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arapurakal (talk • contribs) 03:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)  — Arapurakal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Strongly keep I am aganist deletion of these two articles. Admins should revert the changes by Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil by Wikidemo atleast until the review is over, otherwise what is the review without the specimen ?? - Jinu Jacob, Bangalore


 * Obviously there's been a bit of an external spam by somebody to illicit such a response as this, leading me to believe meatpuppetry is at play here. -- rm 'w a vu  05:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It is believed that the User:Tinucherian is using different socs (including annonym ip's and new sock id created) to comment side with him. The user:Philiptiju is a sockpuppet of this user (admins, please verify) who is currently involved in this article's editing. The user User:Tinucherian has threatened me in my talk page which cannot be justified and not in accordance with our policy As I understood from his talk page he is standing nearer to block stage. But no regret from this user and he is keep on involved in bad faith. -- Avinesh Jose  T  06:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ReplyUser_talk:Avineshjose is misdirecting Wikipedians to validate his claim! Avinesh claims that I have threatened him is absolutely false. I requested him not to scare of new bies to Wikipedia by his eagerness to move articles to AFDThis is my comment]. User_talk:Avineshjose was habitul person on putting lots of articles to AFD ,Please refer to his contributions and Archived Usertalks Articles_for_deletion/Kaimal. Anyways I had already apolgised for my remarks.
 * On his second thing, I am not using any socks. user:Philiptiju happens to be my brother staying with me and has his opinion of his own. Nevertheless. user:Philiptiju has not even interfered in this discussion , which dismisses his claim that I am canvasing.
 * My action of adding this discussion to various AFD sorting pages like Articles for deletion/Christianity and Articles for deletion/Log/2008 February 4 MYSELF seeking opionions blatently shows that I am NOT canvassing for favourable opinions but seeking honest and unbaised opionions.


 * - Tinucherian (talk) 07:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Tinucherian commented: It doesnt make you happy when ur baby, noursished for long ,is killed by someone. You have absolutely no right to speak about my baby. And please do not put my baby’s name in between. Note: I am not misdirecting Wikipedians. A majority has already commented your article to Delete. And only socks and annoyms are commenting it to strongly keep. You have accused me in numerous things in my talk page, which I don’t want to comment at all. --  Avinesh Jose   T  07:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Avinesh Jose is interpreting it wrongly or it is just uglyness of mis-communication.For heavens sake, dont interpret Ur baby meaning Avinash's baby !! I was refering to our own articles as "ur own baby" . I meant who would like if somebody kills your articles after nourishing it for long. I had stopped personal references and Avinesh Jose is again dragging me to this. Please refrain from any more personal comments like this and concentrate on this review. It is a request.
 * Tinucherian (talk) 07:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Dont interpert favourable opinions to your stand as legitimate and Non-favourable opinions to as non-legitimate and socks. This is just not fair. Be sportive ! Finally please Dont try to bait others to moving me into blocking.It is a request. Whatsoever happened let us make constructive contributions to Wiki . Wikipedia is for ALL and those who love it.! - Tinucherian (talk) 08:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The sock case on this AfD has been reported by diffrent admins. Not by me first time (as you can see in this discussion above). It is good that you've changed your attitude, finally. be supportive and constructive (read this also: WP:FIVE). you also commented: Please Dont try to bait others to moving me into blocking. Today morning when I logged in after 2 days, I saw that you have been warned by user Wikidemo of your disruptive edits in your talk page. Thanks. -- Avinesh Jose  T  09:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * With regards to your comments on canvassing, You need to look at the policy again and look at the section on Stealth canvassing:

"Because it is less transparent than on-wiki notifications, the use of email or other off-wiki communication to notify editors is discouraged unless there is a significant reason for not using talk page notifications. Depending on the specific circumstances, sending a notification to a group of editors by email may be looked at more negatively than sending the same message to the same group of people on their talk pages."
 * By tipping off a bunch of people you know offline that this article faces deletion and that you want them to support it being kept doesn't add anything. This isn't a vote, it's a discussion to measure the value of the article to wikipedia, in all of the policies on notability, verifiability, quality and o course the appropriateness of its content to be included in an encyclopedia. Right now, this article doesn't meet any of the necessary policies and having your friends come here and support it being kept is no better than sockpuppetry. It's what we call (and as I said before) meatpuppetry. If you really want these articles to be kept (and I said this before too) improve them to the point we'd be happy to keep them. Read the Christianity articles, Buddhism, Islam, and other family articles such as British Royal Family and your article would fit somewhere in between all of these subject matter-wise, but it certainly does not meet the standards of any of these right now. Not by a long shot. Oh and as a side note, the notability of the people of Pakalomattom are not near the notability of the royal family, so I wouldn't suggest having an article even half the length of that one. -- rm 'w a vu  09:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply : If you think Royality is the only criteria of Notability for families to be in Wikipedia, I can't comment anything more. I again iterate the fact that , the notability of these 2 articles, be consulted , anyone who you are OK with , who have expertise in Indian Christian History. I may not know about African or North American royalty , that doesnt mean I judge them as not notable. Tinucherian (talk) 10:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, there are definitely families of note that aren't royal. I'm not exclusively talking about notability, I'm talking about quality here. These articles are very poorly worded, they have non-notable information and their structures leave much to be desired also. Notability is another matter altogether. I don't think they're notable. Being that I do happen to know a little about the Indian Christian history, I can say that the family is known, but knowledge and notability are different things. Read through (thoroughly) the notability criteria. It says clearly that just because there's a high number of something or even because another article like it exists, doesn't grant it a golden ticket. Each article is assessed on its merits and these articles are not near meritable to keep. One thing you could try to do for the moment, rather than argue with us, is to improve the articles. Give them a "compelling prose". Make them accessible, easy and desirable to read. Follow wikiprotocols and keep your fingers crossed that I'm wrong and that there is a place for these articles on wikipedia. -- rm 'w a vu  10:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

George Cherian. strongly suggest to keep the page. It has been very useful to know the history of Christianity and the ancient families in Kerala. If you delete this page, you are deleting some valueable information on Church History in Kerala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.215.206.16 (talk) 07:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Susan: Strongly keep this info as it will be useful for anyone interested in knowing about Chritianity in South India. A good effort has been made to collect and put up this information. Deleting it will be a loss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.234.45 (talk) 10:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC) — 202.88.234.45 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. — 202.88.234.45 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete. No appropriate sources provided as required by WP:V and recommended by WP:RS. (This includes earlier versions of the article which provided several external links that were also not suitable as source material.)    -- Dachannien TalkContrib 18:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I would request Western readers to kindly keep this in mind as they deal with Oriental people and their systems of knowledge. Oriental societies were mostly - till recently - reliant on oral transmission of knowledge. Those who are educated now along western lines understand the need for citations and sources, etc. Much of our significant history is still unwritten. It was after the arrival of the British in India that our histories began to be written! I remember the words of Robert Eric Frykenberg (Professor Emeritus of History, Univ of Wisconsin) who answered a charge that there are no documented historical evidences to prove that St Thomas came to India. He asked, "Where is the documented historical proof for Peter's arrival in Rome?" (See his book "Christianity in India: Beginnings to the Present") Philip.eapen (talk) 20:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly keep. I agree with the admin that this article needs improvement and source citations. The author may not have a research background to provide these. Kindly grant some time for the improvement of this article to meet encyclopedic standards. Suggestions and constructive comments are welcome as I contribute my bit. The pakalomattom family is a sizeable portion of the Syrian Christian community - which, according to church historians, is a living fossil of the ancient Nestorian church. Some even claim links with the ancient Jewish church, as is evident from the sites of Knanaya Syrian Christians of Kerala who have maintained endogamy for the past 17 or so centuries. I shall strive to provide citations for these. Thanks in advance!
 * — Philip.eapen (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment - My understanding is that the Saint Thomas Christians (like many Indian communities, and also Christian Communities in the Middle East) were endogamous for so long that they have virtually become a separate ethnicity. The traditions (even if unhistoric) of the Saint Thomas Christians as to their origin are potentially suitable for an article in WP.  The nominated article contains a number of references, so that this cannot be dismissed as purely WP:OR.  The problem is that there are at least two other articles on this group.  These should probably be merged.  This article, at present displays considerable problems in that it is trying to be several things at once: it is trying to be (1) a family history (2) an account of the origins of the Syriac Christians of India.  I do not know enough to determine whether the family are notable.  If the claims made above about the family are correct, they should be set out in an article on the family.  It would help of citations were formatted correctly, using the markup material that appears below the edit window, but that is an issue of detail.  I think that the answer is to keep for now, but with the threat of a further AFD procedure, if the specialist editors cannot produce a series of decent articles:
 * Saint Thomas Christians seems OK,
 * Syrian Malabar Nasrani seems OK, though I am not convinced that separate articles are required on an ethnic community and a religious community that are essentially the same.
 * Perhaps a fuller article on the origins of the Saint Thomas Christians, discussing their own traditions as to this and scholarly views on the veracity of these.
 * Perhaps one article on the Pakalomattom, focusing on prominent nasranis from that family. In saying this, I bear in mind that there are family articles based on the titles of British peers.
 * I hope this provides guidelines on which the opponent(s) of this AFD nomination can work to resove the issues concerned. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Syrian Christian community in Kerala has a major role in the socio-economic ladder in Kerala, especially in education and health sector. Pakalomattam family is also quite prominent in Kottayam district of Kerala. (The family (only Pakalomattom) is quite famous among some people in Kottayam district[modified comment added.-- Avinesh Jose T  05:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)). The question is that there are no proper-third-party independent reliable sources available to keep the article in WP per its policy. This is also the reason why a famous family article i.e 'Kolath' check this deletion review deleted, though they are prominent in Pathanamthitta district of Kerala. Can anyone provide at least one such source about this family? A google search redirected me to junk, self & blog pages with no useful informations. -- Avinesh Jose   T  05:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.indianchristianity.org/orthodox/forefathers.html

"Mar Thoma I was the successor of Archdeacon Geevarghese pakalomattom who was the Archdeacon of Malankara Syrian church during and immediately after the Udaymperoor Synod (1599). (Archdeacon Pakalomattom Thomas)... "

"Mar Thoma IV consecrated a member of the pakalomattom family as Mar ThomaV."


 * http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=

" In India St.Thomas founded the church and appointed prelates to continue apostolic ministry in the church. It is believed that the prelates were appointed from for ancient families namely, Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kalli, and Kaliankal. Gradually the Pakalomattom family gained prominence in the ministry and chief prelates of the community where hailed from that family....In his answer, he said, that from 335 AD for 1308 years ie. Till the coonan cress oath, the church was ruled by the Archdeacons of  Pakalomattom family. He also said that after the coming of the Portuguese the church had, besides him six Metrans and one metropolitan."


 * http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/family.htm

"169 Ayiroorkuzhiyil Kudumba Charithram Committee  2005"

" Palakkunnathu Abraham MalpanRecognized as the catalyst behind the Reformation, Abraham Malpan was born in 1796 (Malayalam Era 971) in Palakunnathu family which is believed to be a branch of the renowned Pakalomattam family. "
 * http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/heritage.htm


 * http://www.indianembassy.org/new/NewDelhiPressFile/kerala_christianity.html

"St. Thomas established seven Christian communities or churches in Kerala. They are in Cranganore, Paravur(Kottakavu), Palayoor, Kokkamangalam, Malayattoor, Niranam, Chayal (Nilackal) and Kollam (Quilon). Throughout Kerala, one can find Christian families that are proud to claim descent from ancestors who were baptized by Apostle Thomas. Sankarapuri, Pakalomattom and Maliekal are the prominent ones. .... "


 * http://www.keralachurch.com/main_left_right.php?cmd=keralachristianity

"St. Thomas established seven Christian communities or churches in Kerala. They are in Cranganore, Paravur (Kottakavu), Palayoor, Kokkamangalam, Malayattoor, Niranam, Chayal (Nilackal) and Kollam (Quilon). Throughout Kerala, one finds Christian families that are proud to claim descent from ancestors the Apostle baptized. Sankarapuri, Pakalomattom and Maliekal are the prominent ones. ..."


 * http://www.syrianchurch.org/MalankaraSyrianChurch/MalankaraHistory.htm

"The high caste Brahmin families that adorned Christianity were mainly from Pakalomattom, Shankarapuri, Kalli and Kaliangala families and members from them were ordained as priests or chieftains for the community."


 * http://nasrani.net/2007/06/14/the-tomb-of-archdeacons-kuravilangadu/

"Kuravilangadu has a unique place in the history of the Church of Malabar. The temporal administration of the church was conducted by Archdeacons who were very influential in the society. It is believed that the Archdeacons have been descended from the Pakalomattam family. The mortal remain of a few Archdeacons are still preserved at the Pakalomattam Chapel. "

Note : Detailed history of the family is said in Pakalomattom and Ayrookuzhiyil family websites mentioned at top of this page...

Tinucherian (talk) 07:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You have already provided all these links above in this AfD & subsequently commented. You are still repeating your postings. -- Avinesh Jose  T  08:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have removed several of the internal links to Pakalomattom that are not sourced to reliable sources. Relata refero (talk) 18:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, colour me genuinely surprised. I saw this originally as bog-standard genealogical linkspam based on vanity family websites. Strangely, it isn't. Reliable sources abound that this particular family is notable. Starting with the legendary Edgar Thurston, who in Castes and Tribes of Southern India has the following lines: "The Metram assumed the title of Mar Thomas; He belonged to the family that traced its descent from the Pakalomattom family, held in high respect and great veneration as one of the Brahmin families the members of which were supposed to have been converted and ordained as priests by the apostle himself. Members of the family were supposed to have held the Metranship until 1815, whereupon the line became extinct." There are several other reliable sources from reputable publishers that back this up. Note that no reliable sources indicate the line has continued since 1815. Neverthless, the family itself is highly notable, and so I strongly recommend keeping' the article . Relata refero (talk) 18:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * More is clear now. Clearly we have individuals from another family, the highly non-notable Ayrookuzhiyils, trying to piggyback on the undoubted notability of the Pakalomattoms. The only source for any connection between the two on the entire internet is a book of family history published by the "Pakalomattom Family History Board, 2001". Right. So move to Pakalomattom and nuke all references to the Ayrookuzhiyils, as well as the dense prose that repeats information in the St. Thomas Christians article. Relata refero (talk) 19:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is why I commented yesterday that Pakalomattom is quite well-known family in Kottayam district (The family (only Pakalomattom) is quite famous among some people in Kottayam district[modified comment added.-- Avinesh Jose T  08:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC), but I have no idea about the latter, i.e Ayrookuzhiyils to keep it as an encyclopedia article. -- Avinesh Jose   T  04:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply Hi Avinesh, You had nominated both Pakalomattom and Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil for AFD on questions of notablity and NOR .Now with lots of supporting stuff coming up and change tone of this discussion, it is good to see that now you have taken one step behind, saying that atleast history of Pakalomattom is known to everyone and is of value to Wiki.Appreciated.. Thanks !. Earlier you were alleging that all support of Pakalomattom was fake and sock , which became baseless until many 'notable' users also came forward in support. Just because you dont know something doesnt mean that you are right about it. Please open up your ears to what others have to say also and dont be prejudiced.It is a humble request. - Tinucherian (talk) 05:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Discussion is to establish a consensus among Wikipedia editors. I did not comment that history of Pakalomattom is known to everyone. I commented yesterday that the family (only Pakalomattom) is quite famous among some people in Kottayam district. Please don’t misapprehend my comments. Both articles were nominated as it was lacking sources and build up with a lot of original research. As the discussion progressing, supporters are always welcome to establish more references, remove unreferenced statements and that leads to the final consensus and decision making. That is how Wiki works and we assemble this project. Thanks. -- Avinesh Jose  T  06:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind comments and suggestions. Please note that Ayrookuzhiyil family is a subset (or a branch) of Pakalomattom family. Therefore, there is no question of the former riding piggyback on the latter. Moving this article to the Pakalomattom page may be okay. >> Validation by reliable research is essential. However, most people might agree with me when I say that primary sources of information precede the arrival of secondary and tertiary sources. In a country such as India, much of sociological or historical data is locked up as primary data, untouched by researchers. It is when socially or historically important topics are brought to light that researchers focus their attention on these to dig out and validate claims of truth. India is therefore a very fertile ground for research. Before we relegate to history's waste bin the small clusters of primary data that keep cropping up, let us give researchers a chance.Philip.eapen (talk) 19:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Strongly keep" "very valuable information for the family members and the public." "santhosh" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.88.73.94 (talk) 01:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC) — 59.88.73.94 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Comment As Philip.eapen said, Ayrookuzhiyil is a subset of the great Pakalomattom Family , of which the former started as a seperate stream in 17th century (1684 AD).

We Indians, mostly are reliant on oral transmission of knowledge. Please note that the much of early history of india was recorded by World travellers than Indian historians themselves. The great epic of Ramayana was transferred orally for hundreds of generations.

The history of Ayrookuzhiyil and its connection to the greater family of Pakalomattom is well known in this part of the world. Efforts of recording family history in Kerala began only in this century. It should be noted that almost last 10 generations of Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil family is now recored to books. Infact hand written manuscripts and recordings began in early part of this century by forefathers and it has become sources of information for the present book publications and websites.

The recent steps of history recordings are :

1) Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil Kudumbacharitram Part I ( 2001) : Edited by Dr. Koshy Abraham.

2) Ayiroorkuzhiyil Kudumba Charithram, Kudumba Charithram Committee (2005) . This is archived in Kerala Council for Historical Research [KCHR] (It is an autonomous institution committed to scientific research in history and social sciences. Funded by the Ministry of Cultural Affairs, Government of Kerala ) Ref : http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/family.htm, see Book No 169.

3)Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil website http://www.ayrookuzhiyil.org/]

Please also Note Ayrookuzhiyil is also written as Ayiroorkuzhiyil, Ayrurkuzhiyil , Ayrookuzhi, Ayrukuzhy , Ayrookuzhy, Ayrukuzhiyil , Ayroorkuzhiel etc. This happens when names of Non-english names are translated by generations. Pakalomattom itself is written as Pakalomattom, Pakalomattam , Pakalomattathil etc.

I am still OK with merging of Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil sub-family article to the main artcile of Pakalomattom, but independent research and udpation will also be allowed if there are two artciles. Soon articles of importance of other sub-families of Pakalomattom will come to Wiki in future, hence it is advisable to keep this as two artciles to avoid clutter. Otherwise, there is No need of seperate articles for India and states of india like Kerala , Karnataka etc.

Please also note the history of Pakalomattom is more than 2000 years old and Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil is around 350 years old starting from Idicula Tharakan, the Doyen of the Ayrookuzhiyil Family.

Tinucherian (talk) 03:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Independent research is never allowed. All accessible, independent reliable sources indicate that the Pakalomattom lineage died out completely after 1815. All the above are non-reliable family histories. Relata refero (talk) 16:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Note to Admins : ''There was a sudden deletion of Pakalomattom from many Wiki articles !! Especially when these artciles are given as tangible evidences to this AFD.''


 * K. V. Simon :- [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=K._V._Simon&curid=1678104&diff=189311203&oldid=187496507]


 * Abraham Malpan :- [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abraham_Malpan&curid=8550250&diff=189310928&oldid=188351708]

I dont want to comment who is behind this and its intention.

''Another noticable recent activity is

There was a merger proposal on one of my articles Coonen_Cross_Oath to Coonan_Cross_Oath. User:Avineshjose added [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Coonen_Cross_Oath&diff=189430273&oldid=189316856]

With just one proposal by a user, See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Coonen_Cross_Oath&action=history, User:Avineshjose just deleted the article [[Coonen_Cross_Oath and redirected to Coonan_Cross_Oath !'' Admins, please note the activities. I dont want to comment further on this

Tinucherian (talk) 04:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As the editing history of K. V. Simon & Abraham Malpan shows, there is nothing wrong in the recent editing (done by User:Relata refero). Regarding Coonen cross merge issues, I re-directed it per an established User:Relata refero's suggestion. Details are here. If what I did was wrong, admins may revert my edits. User:Tinucherian, please do not simply drag other issues into this AfD which is not a constructive work. Thanks. -- Avinesh Jose  T  05:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply I dont want to comment at this point, why specific articles by myself are targeted by you. I can give another 100 references , where it is also referred to as Coonen cross. You didnt allow a consensus to be made by many users. Besides mergeing doesnt mean , deleting one and redirecting to another. The data of both should be merged to the retaining artcile. What you are trying is just destruction /loss of data in Wiki.
 * Some of the Proofs of Abraham Malpan related to Pakalomattom


 * http://www.marthomasyrianchurch.org/heritage.htm]" Palakkunnathu Abraham MalpanRecognized as the catalyst behind the Reformation, Abraham Malpan was born in 1796 (Malayalam Era 971) in Palakunnathu family which is believed to be a branch of the renowned Pakalomattam family. "


 * N.M.Mathew, (2007), History of the Malankara Marthoma Church, Vol II (Malayalam) page 88.


 * Mathew, N.M. (2003) History of Palakunnathu Family.


 * Mar Thoma Sabha Directory. (1999). Page 82-89.

Tinucherian (talk) 05:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (you commented) why specific articles by myself are targeted by you.
 * Tinucherian, this will be my last comment to you: it is your clear misunderstanding that I am targeting you. Up to now, I did not have any issues with you. Please drive out any wrong imaginary feelings on my work that I’m doing against you. Assume good faith. As a wikipedian, let me do my duty and you also. Thanks. -- Avinesh Jose   T  06:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete. I don't see how this article can survive in its current form. It is not a suitable topic given the very limited references. Wikipedia is not a genealogy. The Syriac Christians of India certainly are notable enough to be covered in Wikipedia, but a profusion of articles on individual families is not the way to go. The work by Koshy Abraham which is cited looks to be an unpublished work of genealogy. We went through some similar issues with the deletion debates about the Arbuthnot family a few months ago. The use of a work of genealogy was strongly criticized in that case, even though it was a published book that was found in libraries and was available online. (Just one of the many Arbuthnot discussions is in the archive of WP:COIN). EdJohnston (talk) 16:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * yea, the DRV is here. -- Avinesh Jose  T  07:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per EdJohnston. Ism schism (talk) 21:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: The question of this discussion is the need of deletion / retaining of 2 articles by the Nominator User:Avineshjose :- Pakalomattom and Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil. The notability of Pakalomattom is confirmed by the nominator himself to an extent. See above : ''The Syrian Christian community in Kerala has a major role in the socio-economic ladder in Kerala, especially in education and health sector. Pakalomattam family is also quite prominent in Kottayam district of Kerala.'' Here we are taking about a family that is unquestionably has a history of over 2000 years and a sub-family of this which started to flow as a seperate stream since 3-4 centuries ago. Like many others said in this discussion, there is a lot of difference between histrory recordings between the West and Eastern part of the world. Here we are used to oral transmission of knowledge and histroy over generations. Recordings of family histories were started only very recently - may be 2 centuries ago max. The Pakalomattom Ayrookuzhiyil History by Dr.Koshy is available is a published book and available even in libraries. Please note that Dr. Koshy is famous church and family historian with many books to his credit. 'The second book on Ayrookuzhiyil sub- family is Ayiroorkuzhiyil Kudumba Charithram, Kudumba Charithram Committee (2005). This is archived in Kerala Council for Historical Research (KCHR) (It is an autonomous institution committed to scientific research in history and social sciences. Funded by the Ministry of Cultural Affairs, Government of Kerala, India )' Ref : http://www.keralahistory.ac.in/family.htm, see Book No 169.

I am requesting more authentic comments from Wikiadmins from this part of the world as they have more knowledge about the history here.

- Tinucherian (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Try some good manners. They wont hurt your cause. Good luck. Ism schism (talk) 05:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Reply : With all due respect to you, Sir, Let me ask what is not good behaviour above from me ? All I was asking is those who has knowledge about it to ALSO comment about it so that we have a fair discussion. I am NOT seeking any favourable opinion of my stand ! Anyways I thankq for your interest / comments and participation in this discussion.
 * - Tinucherian (talk) 05:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I mean no disrespect. Good luck. Ism schism (talk) 05:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you have expressed an interest in having an editor with local knowledge, may I suggest Blnguyen, since he's interested in India and Buddhism. It's not exactly a match made in heaven to this article, but he's got religious contributions and Indian knowledge, leading me to believe he'd be able to provide objective, but fact-based and knowledgable contributions here. Other than him, there's a range of contributors at WP:INDIA and WP:KERALA (see the users listed here and here). I genuinely want this argument to go fairly, and I believe making a comment on the discussion page for Kerala, you may find others willing to contribute, though you may find some will confirm that the article doesn't belong on Wikipedia (especially considering, as discussed, Wikipedia is not to be used as a listing of family genealogies). -- rm 'w a vu  12:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Regardless of where its archived, a privately published family history is not a reliable source. When that family history makes a claim that directly contradicts Edgar Thurston and several other reliable sources, it is particularly inadmissible under WP:REDFLAG. The Pakalomattoms are notable. The Ayrookuzhiyils are not. Sadly, the former have died out and there is no reliable source by our standards indicating a connection to the Ayrookuzhiyils. As such, this article needs to be deleted, and the Pkalomattom article needs to have all references to the Ayrookuzhiyils removed.
 * I am relatively familiar with the area under consideration. Relata refero (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply Hi Relata, Thanks for your participation /interest in this discussion.With due respect, I should say that Your non-acceptance of Oral traditions of knowledge in this part of the world questions your 'relative familiarity' on this area.
 * So Now do you accept to at least retain the article of Pakalomattom and convinced of its notability and verifiability ?
 * - Tinucherian (talk) 09:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.