Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian Exodus 1949 to 1956


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. No substantial policy-based arguments for deletion were advanced. Given the level of sourcing present in the article, a blanket assertion of "OR" is not enough. I've not even read the various lengthy rants. This closure does not rule out a merger of this article with another, should consensus determine this to be appropriate.  Sandstein  17:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian Exodus 1949 to 1956
No scholar ever talked about a Palestinian exodus between 1949 and 1956. It is true that Arab Israelis were expelled during this period and some villages at Israel's borders leveled but this was not a massive emigration or a period of war (as Exodus means). In the current state, it is a WP:OR Ceedjee (talk) 18:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per nominator. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment just for the record, I do not mind if the content of the article is kept, just that the article itself is a WP:POVFORK. If the creator of the article wants to keep the info, I will not oppose merging it with 1948 Palestinian exodus and renaming the article to Palestinian exodus. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That would not be possible. There was the 1967 Palestinian exodus. Ceedjee (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but Avi Shlaim, Ilan Pappe, Tom Segev all talk of the expulsions and making of Palestinian refugees in 1948 and continuing up to 1956. And as you removed the referenced work from 1948 Palestinian exodus it seems that the continuation article was called for. The other alternate is to correct the tittle in the 1948 Palestinian Exodus article and incorporate the properly secondary referenced work. Exodus doe not imply war or you end up with the absurdity of having to re-tittle the Jewish Exodus from Egypt.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No.
 * You just give the name of 3 New historians. You don't even talk about Benny Morris.
 * Avi Shlaim didn't study the exodus, the expulsion of the Palestinian problem.
 * Ilan Pappé published on the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. But he doesn't refer to the events between 1949 and 1956 as an exodus (mass emigration ?)
 * Tom Segev only published on 1949 in a book I gave the reference to you. And he doens't talk about any exodus. Ceedjee (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I happen to have a copy of Tom Segev 1949 in my hand, you gave nothing. Please stop claiming something that you have not done....I have over 50 books on the shelf in front of my computer on the subject at present, (the amount of books is something my wife complains about) Ilan Pappé calls it Ethnic cleansing and in the epilogue continues up to 2006, are you suggesting that the article should be re-titled the "ethnic cleansing of Israel 1949-1956"? I think that is putting it a bit strong, don't you? Shlaim, Segev and Pappé all give facts about the events referenced. Huthchison as you know was a UN observer and chairman of the Jordan Israel Mixed Armistice commission, the UN archives are very reliable for a neutral source. No historian stops at the end of 1948 for referring to the exodus or ethnic cleansing. Tom Segev is primarily concerned with events within Israel which is useful for expanding the internally Displaced section, Ilan Pappe gives details of the forced labour and expulsion at the end of the period of confinement. Avi Shlain and Tom Segev are good for internal political event and Shlaimis good for external political events. I really am not interested in Benny Morris, so maybe you could add something from Benny to augment the article?...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No bad to have so many books :
 * *At what page Tom Segev, the First Israeli talk about the exodus ?
 * *At what page of which book, Avi Shlaim talk about an exodus for the events between 1949 and 1956 ?
 * *At what page does Benny Morris, the main scholar on this period, talk about an palestinian exodus for the years 1949-1956 ?
 * *Do you deny Ilan Pappé calls ethnic cleansing the period of 1948 and not something else ?
 * Ceedjee (talk) 08:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ilan Pappé calls it Ethnic cleansing from 1948 to present; he doesn't stop at 1948. Are you going to change the title to the article 1948 Palestinian exodus article in light of that? Even Morris in "Birth revisited" goes to 1950. Benny is not the main scholar for the period....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The 1948 Palestinian exodus is an article that have existed on wp:en for more than 5 years and that talks about the exodus that occured during the 1948 Palestine War.
 * There have been nuemrous studies published by scholars in peer-reviewed books and articles about that.
 * In that article, there is no problem to go up to 1950 given expulsions and move population that occured up to 1950 were consequences of that war or linked with that.
 * Ceedjee (talk) 09:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Only there was no major fighting and the war lasted until 1973, when the first peace treaty was signed with Egypt...Benny is the scholar that talks of Exodus and Benny takes it up to 1950. Avi Shlaim refers to it as "Displacement and Dispossession" and takes it from 1948 to 1956, Ilan Pappe calls it "Ethnic Cleansing" and takes it from 1947 to 1953, Ghada Karmi calls it "Exodus" and takes it from 1948 to present. One thing is noticeable they all do not refer to only 1948....Question when are you going to ask for deletion of 1948 Palestinian exodus as the title is OR?Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ashley. You will not succeed in making believe to anybody who followed my contributions that I am a disruptive editor.
 * You refer to Ghada Karmi. Well : here is the first article you can find in her biblography on wikipedia :
 * *"The 1948 Exodus: A Family Story" in Journal of Palestine Studies 23, no. 2 (Win. 1994): 31-40.
 * Who is making wp:or ?
 * It is not because you cherry pick quotes from different sources that the global work is not a wp:or. And in fact, to be precise, it is a WP:SYNTH.
 * Ceedjee (talk) 08:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment How do book refs constitute original research? §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  18:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Per WP:SYNTH. As explained and widely admitted eg here : Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). Ceedjee (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment According to Google Exodus must mean having a holiday as they are the majority of hits when googling "Exodus" the bible chapter "exodus" taking 4th place. with house moving taking up the rear....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You right. Exodus doesn't refer to war period. But to massive population displacement. But there is  no secondary source that ever talked about an exodus for the period 1949-1953. This is WP:SYNTH. Ceedjee (talk) 08:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

exodus noun (exoduses) 1 a mass departure of people. 2 (Exodus) the departure of the Israelites from Egypt, probably in the 13c BC. ETYMOLOGY: 17c; Anglo-Saxon in sense 2: Latin, from Greek exodos, from ex out + hodos way.

Not one mention of war in Chambers definition of Exodus....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep seems to have been an actual historical event...a well referenced article to boot Dreamspy (talk) 19:00, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What references ? It is not because you pick up quotes from different books that this is not wp:OR. Please check carefully the article. Ceedjee (talk) 19:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong keep well referenced, well written article about a significant historical event. nancy  (talk) 19:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What event ? What is the exodus that would have occured between 1949 and 1956 in Israel ? Whose scholar studied it ? Even Benny Morris doesn't talk about this...
 * And why do you dare to write strong for a topic you don't know ??? Ceedjee (talk) 19:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoah there buddy. Cool your jets.  That's making assumptions.  §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  19:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Who makes assumptions ? Please, provide me 1 wp:rs 2nd source that talk about a Palestinian exodus that would have occured between 1949 and 1956... :-) Ceedjee (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * From the reviews I've seen try ISBN:0585259496. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  19:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is this book : Israel's Border Wars 1949-1956 (book). It doesn't talk about a Palestian exodus... Ceedjee (talk) 19:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee problem revisited" doesn't even speak about Exodus in the maintext, It talks of expulsions, refugees, exiting, leaving, Abandonment, transfer, only in the index is there any mention of exodus first wave, second wave, third wave, forth wave and then clearing the borders: expulsions and population transfers November 1948-1950. will you look at that Benny even puts up to 1950 as part of the mass "Refugee" period. Not quite what you have for the title of the 1948 Palestinian Exodus even Benny includes up to 1950....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You are bad faith :
 * The title 1948 Palestinian exodus has been chosen long ago. And I already told you why in giving you the wp:rs secondary source (widely used in the article) : The Palestinian Exodus in 1948 of Steven Glazer published in Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 4 (Summer, 1980), pp. 96-118. Why do you forget this if not bad faith ?
 * We were talking about Borders Wars and an alleged exodus that would have occured between 1949 and 1956 ! Where is the wp:rs secondary source that talk about this ? All you wrote is a wp:or : no scholar ever talked about a Palestinian exodus between 1949 and 1956. Else, please, give the name, the book and the reference If the book you have just found is good, please, give the page in this book where they talk about a palestinian exodus for the period 1949-1956 ? Ceedjee (talk) 09:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. I wasn't privy to any discussions about the original title.
 * 2. The title is inaccurate and not a true reflection of reality. from whatever source you got it from
 * 3. The UNRWA was still trying to figure out the numbers in 1951 because the goal posts kept moving.
 * 4. The events from 1949 to 1956 were a continuation of the exodus of 1948. Same sides same methods, same results...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Mainly per Nancy; well-documented event with significant scope to be expanded even more, actual historical event notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia. Rudget   ( logs ) 19:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep, but move to a more appropriate title than "Exodus" (especially the capital "E" part). The article is verifiably sourced, and the subject is certainly a notable event. S. Dean Jameson 19:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Seems fine to me. §hep   •   ¡Talk to me!  19:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * CommentI had originally written the article within the 1948 Palestinian exodus article but one editor removed it. This is what has caused the fork. Personally I believe the material should be within the original article and not separate...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:20, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Material about expulsions that occured between 1949 and 1956 could hardly be in the article 1948 Palestinian exodus... Please, let me remind you that you reverted this : Ceedjee (talk) 19:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete - Another article using the fork method of this user. As he says himself, whenever his material gets deleted from an article, he dumps it into another one. Ashley is a disruptive editor reported over and over in the last month. Wikipedia is not a garbage dump for his POV--Gilabrand (talk) 19:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee the article is not all about expulsions, there were some who left due to economic forces, there were some who left by persuasion, there was some who left because of Jordanian double dealing there were also some expulsions...the "title" reflects the myriad reasons...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not the issue. What wp:rs secondary source talk about a palestinian exodus (mass emigration) that would have occured between 1948 and 1956 in Israel ? Ceedjee (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The Palestinian Exodus: 1948-1998 (Hardcover) by Ghada Karmi (Editor), Eugene Cotran (Editor) # Publisher: Ithaca Press (28 Jan 1999) # Language English # ISBN-10: 086372244X # ISBN-13: 978-0863722448....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have this book. But I assume he talks about the 750,000 PAlestinians of the 1948 Palestinian exodus and the 350,000 of the 1967 Palestinian exodus to which several expulsions, emigration or flee should be added. But there is nothing such as a palestinian exodus that would have occured between 1949 and 1956. Ceedjee (talk) 20:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Indeed : amazon review : This book analyses this connection and reviews the Palestinian exodus from 1948, through 1967, right up to the present time with the continuing expulsion of Palestinians from Jerusalem. It explores the themes of compensation for Palestinians, the right of return of the refugees to Israel and the feasibility of return". Ceedjee (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Ghada Karmi and Eugene Cotran seem to disagree with you.... from 1948 through to 1967 and right up to the present. not of 1948 and 1967. The Palestinian Exodus 1948-1998 documents how, through five decades, the Palestinian population has been exposed to expulsions and other forms of pressure .Jstor ....Which historian gives a fixed date to the end of the Exodus??....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No Ashley. They do not disagree with me. Expulsions and other kind of pressures are not an exodus. Ceedjee (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You are correct other pressures are not an exodus; they are however the root causes of an exodus. And Karmi does refer to 5 decades..He doesn't skip a decade..The Christian exodus from Bethlehem is still ongoing....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you mean you are making this pov-pushing because you are disappointed by the expulsions of Palestinians that still occurs today ? WP is not a second battleground for that ISraeli-Palestinian conflict. WP is not a tribune for PAlestinians or Israelians ! Ceedjee (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. - Diligent  Terrier  (and friends) 20:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong keep I'm not familiar with many of the sources being used for this page, but they look reliable, and I know Segev is reliable. The nom's challenge "no scholar..." is quite adequately answered, and unless the article is written by Segev and the other people, it's not original research.  Article passes every verifiability and notability standard that I know of.  Nyttend (talk) 20:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, Tom Segev is a wp:rs source. I wrote this FA based mainly on one of his book : fr:émeutes de 1920 en Palestine mandataire. But here, it is not used and the word exodus doesn't appear in his book 1949. The First Israelis... Ceedjee (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The word exodus wasn't included in the Talmud; it is however in the Bible. Morris does use the word Exodus for events outside of 1948 yet you still maintain the parent article is correctly entitled. Even when Morris goes to 1950 with his book? You have a strange attitude to historical events.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Who talked about Talmud and Bible ? This is straw man argument.
 * You wrote here above he was not using the word exodus. Now you write he uses this.
 * 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expeled during the 1948 Palestine War. This is a well-document and widely studied exodus ! There are articles by scholar written with that word (see here above - Glazer). And Morris (in the Birth revisited) studies the WAR period.
 * No scholar ever refered to the expulsions of Palestinians between 1949 and 1956 as an exodus (mass expulsion).
 * It is just a pov you want to move forward (a wp:or for wikipedia) because you are moved by what Palestinians live. WP is not a political tribune.
 * Ceedjee (talk) 09:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Talmud/Bible. The words used now are not always the words used at the time of an incident and it was also showing that exodus was not attached to war.
 * How many does it take to be an exodus?
 * Morris' book Birth goes up to and includes 1950. Well outside the main periods of fighting.... Ilan Pappe gives 1953 as the last bayonet point expulsion although the UN archives give an example in 1956 under cover of the Suez crisis....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Karmi does.
 * No, I'm pretty much a cold hearted bugger....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep A well-attested and documented process. For instance, historian Nur Masalha deals with this in depth in his book A Land Without People: Israel, Transfer and the Palestinians 1949-96 (Faber and Faber, London 1997, ISBN 0-571-191000-20. The second sub-chapter in the book is titled 'Less Arabs':Expulsions in the 1950s. It starts "After 1948, Israeli use of force continued in an attempt to induce some of the remaining Arabs to leave the country. Wholesale expulsions of Arabs, many with Israeli citizenship, across the border continued well into the late 1950s" (p7), and the first fifty pages of the book discuss and document this thoroughly. RolandR (talk) 10:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Seems to me like the debate revolves mostly around the title. "Exodus" might indeed be extreme enough to constitute OR, if no consensus among historians about using this term exists. Perhaps it should be moved to "Expropriation of Palestinian lands" or something similar. -- Nudve (talk) 10:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Ceedjee, asked me for an opinion. I have not had the time (Formula 1, and Federer on Centre Court have tempted me away from my duty to look as closely as I would like at this), but I agree with RolandR: there are a sufficient number of cases underlining a policy of continued expulsion over the period 1949-1956, not to speak of modern times) to warrant an articles along these lines. But I concur with Nudve's point. The problem is the word Exodus, which links these individual actions of expulsion, displacement over time to two events of massive displacement at two specific points in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (1948/1967). The article's content (which requires considerable refinement) shoudl be retained, but the title should be altered to avoid suspicions of infractions of WP:OR. Perhaps eventual a more ambitious title. 'Systematic expulsion and deportations' Nishidani (talk) 12:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  22:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Transfer of Arab Israelis between 1949 and 1956 ? "Transfer" gathering : expulsion (for any reason) + expropriation of lands (and move) + legal buying of lands (and move) + volunteer departure ... Ceedjee (talk) 11:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been 'transferred' out of a country with a gun (actually three) at my back, and dislike the word. I was expelled, not transferred. One calls a spade a spade. Exodus, in any case, is simply the wrong word as well.Nishidani (talk) 13:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As ceedjee likes Benny...Split the bits up to 1950 and put them in the Palestinian Exodus (this would make the 1948 date irrelevant) and retitle to Israeli Border Wars (plenty of room for spin off articles, there's already a couple Qibya, Beit jala to name two and loads of expansion work to get on with)....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Comment' for the benefit of Ceedjee, Ashley and maybe others: Ghada Karmi is a woman. She has written extensively about the Palestinian refugee experience. RolandR (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"Revision as of 19:17, 3 July 2008 (edit) Ceedjee (Talk | contribs) (this... has... nothing... to... do... with... the... 1948... Palestinian... exodus... CREATE A NEW ARTICLE AFTER FOUNDING A WP:RS 2ND SOURCE !!!)", funny how your argument changes after you notice that there were loads of secondary sources in the article and that your argument has been shown to be ridiculous.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 00:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak keep the title is problematic and the content needs work, but there's nothing terribly problematic, and it documents real historical events using solid references. No prejudice against merging this to the 1948 Palestinian exodus article though. Come to think of it, we don't really have an article on the Israeli military rule of its Arab population from 1949-66, do we? Maybe a general article about that needs to be written, and we can merge this and other content in. Anyway I don't see a real reason to delete it (or why Ceedjee gets so upset / insulting about these things.) &lt;eleland/talkedits&gt; 20:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Too easy Eleland. Don't you think two guys are upset and insulting ? Why didn't you try to find what lead to this... Material could be merged in the 1948 Palestinian exodus article, indeed. But not to argue a modification of the title. Ceedjee (talk) 07:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * From where you initially removed it 1948 Palestinian exodus:


 * Keep this is a historical event, and arguments for deletions here seem quite disingenuous. Niczar ⏎ 20:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have moved the article to a more standardized name (per the other, similar articles), which does not affect this AfD in the least. If the result is "delete", it will still be deleted, of course. S. Dean Jameson 21:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions.   — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions.   — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 23:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * comment. I would like to carry into attention all arguments about WP:SYNTH given here : Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). And I still point out there is not wp:rs sdecondary source that ever talked about a 1949-1956 Palestinian exodus. Ceedjee (talk) 07:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Apart from:- The Palestinian Exodus: 1948-1998 (Hardcover) by Ghada Karmi (Editor), Eugene Cotran (Editor) # Publisher: Ithaca Press (28 Jan 1999) # Language English # ISBN-10: 086372244X # ISBN-13: 978-0863722448......Take your POV else where ceedjee...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 08:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You haven't this book. You don't know why she globalized the 1948-88 period.
 * As you know yourself :
 * in 1948-49 : 700-750,000 palestinian refugees (flight and expulsion)
 * in 1950-66 : 20,000 palestinian refugees + 15,000 beduin (expulsion - transfer)
 * in 1967 : 350,000 palestinian refugee
 * between 1967-88 : regular expulsion of Palestinians.
 * Whatever the "crime", a flow of 700,000 on 1 year or of 300,000 on 1 week, is an exodus (and numerous historian call this an exodus).
 * No scholar (and Karmi first is not and second certainly doens't claim so) ever called the 1949-56 period an exodus.
 * All this should be merged or rename. And if merged in 1948 Palestinian exodus, the article title should not be changed. Because this exodus refers to the one of the 1948 war. And I have given the sources to you (the most nice one being an article of... Ghada Karmi herself, published in the Journal of Palestine studies).
 * Ceedjee (talk) 08:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

How disingenuous are you going to get Ceedjee; Morris has 30,000 to 40,000 for the years 1949 (post truce) to 1950 not for the years you give. See Benny Birth p 536.


 * 1 1947-1949 (to the truce):700,000-750,000
 * 2 1949(post truce)-1950 30,000-40,000 (Benny Birth p 536.)
 * 3 1950 to 1956........Unknown
 * 4 1956-1967....unknown
 * 5 1967 350,000
 * 6 1967-1988 regular expulsion of Palestinians.
 * 7 1988 to present regular emigration.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ghada Karmi in her personal exodus of 5 (Mum, Dad, brother, sister and herself) in July 1948 so 5 now meets your criteria for an exodus. and then of course as her judgement is now valid when she says "Exodus 1948 to 1998". or again is that only allowed if it agrees with your version and disallowed if it disagrees with you?..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Ghada Karmi refers to the process as "Vanishing the Palestinians" and puts the brackets of 1948 to present....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

In answer to Ceedjee's smear tactics

 * I would kindly ask you to be WP:CIVIL. I am not responsible of the fact you have just been blocked. I remind you that user:Gilabrand asked me to come and try to discuss with you because I could be somewhere in between you and her. I want to underline that I have the same kind of discussion with user:Amoruso and had before numerous ones with user:Zeq
 * Ceedjee (talk) 08:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

What has that got to do with the article I don't know:-

But here is the Israeli POV that Ceedjee has defended. The Cherry picking, OR and just inaccuracies on Beit Jala raid.

....................................................

Washington, on the other hand, went ahead with formal representations to Tel Aviv, the American consul in Jerusalem called the raid ‘open, organized and provocative brutality’. The State Department told Israel that, while the US understood its difficulties stemming from infiltration, the ‘military incursions by Israel into Jordan or other neighbouring states (for the) purpose (of) shooting people or destroying property appeared to dept as extremely grave violations Armistice Agreement which c(ould) not be justified under any circumstances.’ Dean Acheson spoke of ‘brutal. .terror tactics’ US Ambassador Tel Aviv Monnett Davis initially said IDF got upper hand over avowed policy of government, since the ‘dominant military clique’ held a cynical view of moderates’ efforts to make peace. Benny Morris, Border Wars p. 218-219

Yet according to the article everything was hunky dory in international reactions???

Benny says attack 3 blew up 2 article says blew up 3

From the article:-

On January 6, 1952, three houses in Beit Jala were rigged with explosives and blown up.

What does benny actually say:-

An IDF platoon attacked three of Beit Jala’s outlying houses with light weapons and grenades, and then blew up two of the houses while their occupants were still inside. Benny Morris, Border Wars p.215 

...Benny agrees with Hutchison's description...article agrees with no one

from the article:-

presumed to be revenge for the rape and murder of a Jewish girl by infiltrators from Beit Jala.

Presumed by who??????

By the US:-

‘Western diplomats were not convinced that the Feistinger rape-murder was the work of infiltrators. In Apr.1953 the US consul-general in Jerusalem wrote: ’It was never shown that the act was not committed by her Israeli boy-friend’Benny Morris, Border Wars n 16 p.215 By the UN:-

Major Loreaux expressed the opinion that the Israeli police would have a better chance of finding the killer than the Arabs would.

looks like the presumption is OR POV...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:05, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.