Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian wine


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Unless the article has no salvageable content, content problems are not a reason for deletion. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 02:12, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Palestinian wine

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POINTY POV, this is part of a slew of articles created by an editor who seems to have a serious beef with Israel so much so that his main goal is to use Wikipedia to delegitimize Israel at every opportunity. He takes a few sources, strings them together and tries to make an article out out something not notable at all. This article is a POV fork of Israeli wine and it expands on it solely as a fork to bash Israel. No other country has such an article on the history of wine. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:25, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Everymorning (talk) 01:27, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk)  01:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wine-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk)  01:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph (talk)  01:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Zerotalk 02:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Israeli wine. Potentially merge some of the content.Zigzig20s (talk) 01:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi there User:Zigzig20s - please take your head out of your rear. Palestine and Israel are separate countries. AusLondonder (talk) 05:00, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose Who said anything about delegitimizing Israel? Obscene remarks. You want to deny the existence of the West Bank? Or do you want to deny that the lands consisting modern day Israel were most recently called Palestine? Makeandtoss (talk) 01:52, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with the West Bank. Look at Chesdovi's contributions. He has an extreme POV and COI and he should not be editing articles about Israel. Half of this article could be about Israeli wine, yet it's in this subject, merely because he does want to deligitimize Israel because he is part of a group of Jews who does deligitimize Israel. So yes, it is obscene and I hope you would agree with me that someone who shares that opinion shouldn't be editing articles about the region. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:10, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Lol, let me guess. You call these group of people self-hating Jews? --Makeandtoss (talk) 13:26, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * What would you call Jews who march with Holocaust deniers and the destruction of Israel? Sir Joseph (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * "Jews"? And what do you call Jews who deny the Genocide in the Holy Land and who cosy up to the proponents of secular Zionism whose aim is the destruction of Judaism? Self-hating Jews? Chesdovi (talk) 20:00, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose The article content ends before the state of Israel was created, so the claim that this is a fork of Israeli wine is ridiculous. Besides that, a AfD nomination consisting almost entirely of an attack on the motives of another editor should lead to a speedy close if not sanctions. Zerotalk 02:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * take a look at his other articles he created. It's hard to AGF. This has nothing to do with the IP conflict but an internal Jewish debate and he is taking an extreme minority fringe opinion. Sure, this article has some history to it. But an Israeli Wine article is the place for a section on Israeli wine. This article only serves one purpose. Sir Joseph (talk) 02:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the way you are carrying on. Read WP:NPA.  Actually your overall assessment of Chesdovi is completely wrong and you should stop shooting insults at people you don't understand.  Since when is wine produced before Israel existed "Israeli wine" anyway?  It doesn't make sense. Zerotalk 02:26, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Zero that a redirect to Israeli wines is out of the question. But I also agree with Sir Joseph that this editor has a severe case of POV, and has been promoting the term "Palestinian" completely out of context in many articles over the years. This is just the most recent, and most ludicrous of them. Debresser (talk) 08:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep and better coordinate with Israeli wine. This article appropriately covers the period before 1948, when the area that is now Israel and Palestine was nearly universally referred to in English as Palestine. It should be expanded to cover viticulture in the West Bank and Gaza, if there is any. What is inappropriate is for Israeli wine to pretend there was such a thing as Israeli wine during biblical times or at any other time before 1948. Regardless of my suspicions about Chesdovi's motivation in creating this article, I respectfully disagree with the nom that it's a POV fork, There's virtually no overlap between the two articles except, as I noted, what I think is inappropriate overreach in the article about Israeli wine. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:43, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * keep looks a legitimate article to me. - üser:Altenmann >t 06:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete This article is another point in case of User:Chesdovi's long history of cherrypicking sources and individual statements from those sources to put together an article that looks well-sourced, while in reality it is his synthesis which builds the article about what is in reality non-subject. It is awful that someone should good good academic sources to make a political statement based on a choice of words as opposed to the intention of those sources. At least we shouldn't lend a hand to those efforts. Come on guys, Palestinian wine?! Debresser (talk) 08:35, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Come on yourself! I have tons of articles and books on my computer that mention wine making in "Palestine" without even needing to go to the web. And charges of cherry-picking mean nothing without examples.  It seems you are also more concerned with the author than the content. Zerotalk 09:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:CAN ALERT: . Chesdovi (talk) 12:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep of course. All citations are sourced to "Palestinian wine".
 * Palestinian rabbis produced Palestine wine
 * For kiddush each week, recalling God's eternal sign
 * In Jerusalem and Safed they imbibed their brew
 * Their unique concoction was envied by every Jew
 * Centuries before Israel appeared on the map
 * Palestinian wine was available on tap
 * Pressed from grapes grown in the holy earth
 * It filled Palestinian Jews with abundant mirth
 * They sent it across the globe, far and wide
 * Soaring demand invigorated them with pride
 * Now the Zionists claim to have supplanted Palestine's vine
 * But we will always remember fondly our Palestinian wine
 * L'Chaim! Chesdovi (talk) 11:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * See here. Zerotalk 01:18, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * commenting considering that the article is mostly about kosher wine since Palestinians don't drink wine, you can certainly see why the article had a pov, why not call it history of kosher wine, or something similar?Sir Joseph (talk) 13:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no., Makeandtoss (talk) 14:13, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Palestinians can drink as much wine as they like. Muslims are. Some anyway. There is debate that wine is just fine. Some Orthodox Christians of Palestine have started a winery as is linked above. They also have a Brewery there that is ties to the same owners as I understand.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:42, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Nomination seems pointy. As for "No other country has such an article", Category:Wine by country might be worth a look pablo  15:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean, wine by country, I meant on the history of the wine by country. The whole article is just a way for the author to avoid saying Israel is a country. Would you not say this should belong in History of Kosher wine or History of Israeli wine or something similar? Does any other country have such a convoluted and expanded history section? Sir Joseph (talk) 16:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect and merge to Wine in the Middle East, which desperately needs referencing like this, and merge applicable sections about Israeli wine in particular to Israeli wine. The latter article could be renamed Wine in Israel to encompass the historical connotations of the wine produced here, besides its modern-day "boutique wine" image. Otherwise, Palestinian wine seems like a fork of the latter two articles. I agree with Sir Joseph that this article is a way of avoiding any reference to "Israel". Yoninah (talk) 17:26, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ...And how many times is "Palestine" referenced in Israeli wine? None! Should we AFD Israeli wine since it is a way to "avoid saying [Palestine was] a country"? Just take a look at this line from that article: "In Roman times, wine from Israel was exported to Rome with the most sought after wines being vintage, dated with the name of the winemaker inscribed on the amphora." But there was no "Israel" in Roman times, only Judea or Palestine! The hypocrisy here has a debilitating stench. Chesdovi (talk) 18:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That's because it's an article about Israeli Wine. Are you purposely being daft? Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 18:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * By all means, have your article on wine made in Israel. But why deny a page about wine made in Palestine? There was no State of Israel in the year 50 CE. And last time I checked, we don't tolerate place name anachronisms within articles which are intended to subvert the truth and crush cultural identities on Wikipedia. Chesdovi (talk) 19:51, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I could go for this, I think some of the sources are valid and while the intent is of course to avoid using the Zionist Entity's name, if we take the sources and redirect to Wine in the Middle East we can expand that article to a nice decent article. A good chunk of this article is about the ME anyway, not the Zionist Entity anyway. Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 17:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, go on, anything to remove Palestine from your Zionist-centric map. Chesdovi (talk) 18:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep or Redirect and merge This content and its references should not be lost.  I don't want (and don't think there is any good reason) for this to become involved in the politics between Israel and Palestine.  We should bridge that gap. However, We should relish  and promote the distinctions and not bury or homogenize distinct viticultural districts, histories and heritages. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I just added a modern industry section. Now I fail to see any reason on why the article should be removed. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * A clarification will need to be added to the lead vis-à-vis Israeli wine and Palestinian wine post 1948. Chesdovi (talk) 18:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering that you added one tiny section to a huge article about historical stuff, would you support Yoninah's suggestion above? Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 18:24, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * A tiny section can be expanded. All countries have similar articles, Palestine should be no exception. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Well said. You tell them. Chesdovi (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep or Redirect, merge, and rename I notice that the history section of the Israeli wine contains the the history of the wine before an Israel existed. It would seem more appropriate to put it on a Palestinian history page or to combine both listings and rename them accordingly.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * LOL. If we try to combine these into a history of Palestinian and Israeli wine as one article, the partisans on both sides of this neverending civil war will go nuts (not grapes). -- Kendrick7talk 05:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * lol, and if we don't the partisans of both sides will still go nuts.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 15:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * You will notice above a suggestion to Redirect and merge to Wine in the Middle East. Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 15:50, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * And do you similarly advocate redirecting and merging Israeli wine to Wine in the Middle East? And if not, why not? Chesdovi (talk) 15:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for proving my point. Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 16:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * My pleasure. Anytime. Though I'm not sure if you also want to merge Egyptian wine and Jordanian wine too. Chesdovi (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Lol, so now we are going to merge all Middle East wines to appease partisans. I see no point in taking any action to appease any partisan of either side because nothing is going to appease either side. By the way, seriously you found Taybeh winery for Palestinian wine but not Cremisian Winery? I didn't explain the keep vote but seems like everyone else has done so well in that.There's enough justification to keep.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to be a reasonable article; the region of Palestine has existed for over a thousand years, and, like many regions of the world has been noted for their wine over the ages. Is there any logic to derail this reality other than contemporary politics, or that the OP simply holds the original author of the article in low esteem? I've seen WP:IDONTLIKEIT a lot on AfD; but I've never seen I don't like that editor used as a valid excuse to delete their work. -- Kendrick7talk 05:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Per Kendrick7. This article is well sourced and the topic is relevant. No argument is provided by the editors supporting the deletion. It seems to be a WP:IDONTLIKEIT issue. The merging is not a right argument either. Palestinian wines are not Israeli wines and Israel is not Palestine. Why not merging Spanish, French and Italian wines in European wine ? Pluto2012 (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a legitimate topic. Let's not make Israel/Palestine topics on Wikipedia more loaded than they already are. gidonb (talk) 20:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep Cannot believe the comments made be the nom suggesting having a page about Palestinian wine is "de-legitimising" Israel. User:Sir Joseph - you are de-legitimising Palestine and the Palestinian people yourself with this shameful, WP:POINTy and WP:IDONTLIKEIT nom. Palestine exists. It IS NOT part of Israel. Palestine is recognised by 70.5% of all UN members including major world and regional powers such as Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Russia, South Africa and China. A number of European countries, such as Malta, Serbia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Iceland and Sweden. The nom is saying "I don't like the editor - let's delete". This is one of the most procedurally flawed and despicable nominations I have ever seen. It is shameful. I believe this nom meets the criteria for a speedy keep set out at WP:SKCRIT  "The nomination was unquestionably made for the purposes of vandalism or disruption and, since questionable motivations on the part of the nominator do not have a direct bearing on the validity of the nomination, no uninvolved editor has recommended deletion as an outcome of the discussion. For example:
 * a) obviously frivolous or vexatious nominations (such as recently featured articles or April Fools jokes)
 * b) nominations which are made solely to provide a forum for disruption, e.g. when a contestant in an edit war nominates an opponent's userpage solely for harassment" AusLondonder (talk) 04:59, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * User:AusLondonder, there is no such thing as the "Palestinian people" in a historical context. This article is about the history of wine in a region which the foreign powers labeled "Palestine" after the ancient Philistines, and which in fact is the Land of Israel. Did you read the article? Yoninah (talk) 10:36, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * AusLondoner missed the point, but I'm not sure if that is worse than getting the point and still voting against an article topic that is so obviously legitimate. Zerotalk 00:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't vote against it, I suggested merging it with Wine in the Middle East. Obviously it's a legitimate topic. Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you propose merging Israeli wine into Wine in the Middle East too? If not, you should explain the inconsistency. Zerotalk 12:24, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yoninah, there is also no such thing as the "Israeli people" in a historical context either. Nor the "Italian people" before the mid-19th century. The list is endless. What "Palestinian" means in this context is "from Palestine." It is distinct from the concept of a Palestinian nation. Chesdovi (talk) 19:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment. In this document you can find proof that the Jewish wine growers of late Ottoman Palestine called it Palestinian wine in English, German, French and Yiddish. Search of the Palestine Post proves that the same is true in English during the British Mandate. Zerotalk 08:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * , but that doesn't mean they called it that during the Roman and Greek period? Certainly you can see how this article might be better suited merged, if you don't want it deleted. Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 03:43, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely no reason to not call the historic region by the name used by the overwhelming majority of high quality English sources. It's as simple as that. If you have an actual argument for deletion or merging, it's high time that you tell us what it is. Zerotalk 08:31, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. Possibly rename. The article itself is okay but like most new articles is in need of a bit of work. Chesdovi however is quite clearly a bad faith editor who has obviously created this article in order to "stick it" to the "Zionists", whom he opposes ideologically, and rather uncivilly. (I have collapsed his and others' less helpful contributions to this AfD.) Suspicions of a potential POV fork are not totally without merit, and the locus of the article needs to be sorted pronto, as it was probably intended to create an opening to extend its content into the modern State of Palestine, and advance the idea that it is in fact this state that is the true "legitimate" successor to the Mandate and the historical region. User Makeandtoss has already begun [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestinian_wine&diff=702965402&oldid=702958799 editing to that end]. I'm of the view that this article should stop dead at 1948 and continue on in the child articles Israeli wine and a possible Wine in the State of Palestine article. This article should perhaps be renamed something suitable to avoid confusion; I honestly suspect fostering such confusion was in fact a partial motivation of the article creator. Blurring the clear lines between the historical Palestine and the decidedly modern State of Palestine is a key tactic of anti-Zionist and Palestinian nationalist editors on Wikipedia. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 12:44, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we could merge, redirect or rename, if you take a look at those not in favor of keeping, there is a consensus to take some of the content, salvage and merge either into Wine in the Middle East or something along those lines, but as it stands now, the article is most certainly POV and should not stand. Based on your comments, I would ask you to change your keep to a merge, redirect or rename. Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 19:07, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Could probably simply subtitle the older stuff Wine in historic Palestine. Subtitle the modern section accordingly.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 13:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * . Chesdovi (talk) 18:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:CIR Sir Joseph <sup style="color:green;">(talk) 18:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.