Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pankhuri Gidwani


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  07:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Pankhuri Gidwani

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Not yet notable WP:NMODEL: has participated in several beauty pageants, but not won any. Only passing mentions in reliable sources. Little Will (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Little Will (talk) 07:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. Little Will (talk) 07:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Beauty pageants-related deletion discussions. Little Will (talk) 07:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Little Will (talk) 07:24, 17 September 2016 (UTC)


 * "Keep" - This article has been created very recently and this article could be improved rather than deleted. This article can be fixed through normal editing, and it is not a candidate for AfD. This editor "Little Will" says that she has not won any pageants. Pankhuri has won the title of "Femina Miss India Grand 2016" and she has not participated at Miss Grand International yet. What if she wins the international pageant?. It is very soon to consider this article for deletion. So, I please request to not delete this article and give some time as this article can easily be fixed by normal editing. Please don't delete this article. CyberBrinda (comment) 5:47, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The article is over a month old, and she has not won Femina Miss India Grand 2016: the reference says she was second runner-up. Calling that a win is like saying the United States was "first runner up" in the Vietnam War. Little Will (talk) 12:33, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Little Will, every year the 2nd Runner up of Femina Miss India is awarded with the title "Miss Grand India" and that is considered as a win and you can't compare war with pageants. You have not so much understanding of pageantry, that is the reason you have nominated this article for deletion in the first place. For example Priyanka Chopra was "1st runner up" in Femina Miss India 2000 and she was given the title "Femina Miss World India". So according to you even that is not considered as a win? In 2015, Vartika Singh was 2nd Runner up in Femina Miss India 2015 and was awarded with title " Miss Grand India" so even that is not a win? I request to Please don't delete this article as it can be easily improved instead of deleting. Thanking You CyberBrinda (comment) 6:18 , 17 September 2016 (UTC)

* "Keep" - The article is based on multiple and reliable sources. It can be improved. -- Lolitartine (talk) 13:12, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources yes, but which ones do you believe are WP:Reliable sources? Little Will (talk) 13:16, 17 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect: Another "Come on people". This is a !vote on the current subject notability and not what "might happen" in the future. She was 2nd runner up and according to the article lead "She will represent India at Miss Grand International 2016 pageant", and not "awarded with the title automatically". The 1st runner up, "Sushruthi Krishna", one would think somewhat more prestigious, does not yet even have an article. Priyadarshini Chatterjee won and we have an article on her. While I can appreciate a drive to have an article on "all things beauty pageant" Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This is a look at the references: #1)- indianandworldpageant.com A primary source. #2)- is not a good reference. Check it out. #3)- According to this primary advertising reference (..."possesses a pretty face complimented with a heart arresting smile. With oozing elegance and charm,...") "Pankhuri Gidwani hailing from Lucknow will now represent India at Miss Grand International 2106 pageant". "More than 90 delegates are anticipated to particpate this year.", so should we have an article on every one? #4)- is a primary source. #5)- A secondary news report is the first actual reference where she is congradulated on winning the "Campus Princess 2016 season" and "fbb Femina Miss India 2016 2nd". #6)- a blogspot states she was "2nd runner up of FBB Femina Miss India 2016". "She was crowned by the previous 2nd runner up Ms. Vartika Singh, who was crowned Femina Miss India Grand International 2015 and placed 2nd in the Miss Grand International 2015. #7)- Primary beauty pageant news, #8)- More primary source beauty pageant news about the subject winning "Campus Princess 2016 season 1". #9)- The final reference Miss Grand International 2016 Finals to be held in Las Vegas is about the location and "reigning Miss Grand International, Claire Parker (Claire Elizabeth Parker) from Australia", that does not have an article.
 * Conclusion: We have a lot of primary sources about a 2nd runner up that will compete in a Miss Grand International along with 80 to 90 other individuals. We are either going to have articles on everything, so I nominate my recently passed beautiful and wonderful sister, that also has at least one secondary news report, or we need to draw a line. Redirect and look at her when she is actually notable for more than one thing. Otr500 (talk) 16:28, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Otr500, The 1st runner up of Femina Miss India 2016 "Sushruti Krishna" doesn't have an article in Wiki as she is not participating in any international pageants and hence is not notable. And coming to this point that more than "80 contestants" are participating in Miss Grand International, but all the contestants may not be that notable in their respective countries and hence may not have an article written on them. But Pankhuri is very notable in her country and the Chief minister of her state, Akhilesh Yadav himself visited her personally to congratulate her victory which has never happened before. And Femina Miss India is not her first pageant. She has participated in other pageants before. *"Please note that I have updated even better and reputed references in this article" and no blogs have been used in this article as a reference. She is notable to be featured in Wikipedia accordingto WP:GNG as there are many published articles written about her by reputed news agencies, and
 * This article can definitely be improved by WP:ATD(normal editing) instead of deleting CyberBrinda (comment) 10:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And hello to you CyberBrinda. I am a big fan of things that are significant to a particular place that has independent coverage to prove notability. I am a proponent of BLP's being well referenced. I went thru every references and according to policy, that also includes WP:Notability. In the subsection Self-promotion and publicity (WP:SPIP) it states "The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the topic itself (or of its manufacturer, creator, author, inventor, or vendor) have actually considered the topic notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works of their own that focus upon it—without incentive, promotion, or other influence by people connected to the topic matter.", and we all know pageants are about sponsors that advertise their products. This is why we need independent sources. The subsection Events states "Even a large number of news reports that provide no critical analysis of the event is not considered significant coverage.".


 * Your statement" "...but all the contestants may not be that notable in their respective countries and hence may not have an article written on them", while supporting inclusion of a 2nd runner up which is 3rd place, is why we have articles like Miss Gabon contestants Marie-Noëlle Ada, a thus far (since 2012) unassessed article and stub article Channa Divouvi, because the criteria for inclusion is subjective. Then look at Marilyne Nfono (currently unassessed since 2015), Maggaly Nguema, Pulchérie Nze Nzoughe, and Ruth Jennifer Ondo Mouchita, a one referenced unassessed (since 2012) stub article. These go along with articles like Cecilie Wellemberg. What do all these articles have in common? They are articles about beauty contestants that are many times BLP's, and are under referenced or referenced using one or more primary sources. Many editors argue the misapplied WP:BLP1E rather than the appropriate WP:BIO1E.


 * Please do not think or assume that I am on some campaign as a deletionist. In fact, if there is coverage of an individual concerning an event, and there is not enough secondary coverage for a stand alone article, I will advocate a redirect over deletion.


 * Here is my dilemma and where you can help.


 * Dilemma: Little Will stated "the reference says she was second runner-up. Calling that a win is like saying the United States was "first runner up" in the Vietnam War.", and your reply was; "every year the 2nd Runner up of Femina Miss India is awarded with the title "Miss Grand India" and that is considered as a win and you can't compare war with pageants. You have not so much understanding of pageantry, that is the reason you have nominated this article for deletion in the first place.". The Metaphor about the Vietnam War (yes a touchy subject concerning vehicles that push world peace) is about a win versus not winning. Your answer did not actually help me nor I am sure Little Will.


 * The help (You can help): You assert that placing 2nd or 3rd is in fact a win but neither the Femina Miss India nor the Femina Miss India 2016 actually offers any information to back this up with content that can be understood by those of us that do not understand. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge or understanding. It is a supposed goal of an encyclopedia to help others learn and understand. You apparently have some understanding more than some of us and I have already dug deeper than I wanted to. This is where a primary source can be of help. http://www.angelopedia.com/Beauty-Pageants-Info/India/Femina-Miss-India/50 gives some incite into how placing 2nd, or 3rd, is actually considered a win with the pageants so insert a middle (2nd) paragraph in "Femina Miss India" that explains the current placing and how they are advanced. Place a on the Femina Miss India 2016 article and tie this stuff together. There are some of us editors that have decided to "follow the rules" (if you will), that has been established by community consensus, and many go a step farther with BLP's. Many, many, many of the articles like I exampled above do not follow policies and guidelines, even when interpreted by the most lax reasoning, so there should be less "battling" to try to find exemptions and more "make improvements", merge, or delete. I know that when I see BLP articles like Cecilie Wellemberg, with only two primary references (pageantsnews.com and www.angelopedia.com.) I am appalled, yet others will advocate inclusion to the last breath. A BLP article with 20 references that are all primary especially about one event, according to current policies and guidelines, does not warrant a stand-alone article on Wikipedia and certainly not an article with only two.


 * WP:GNG is not a sole determining factor for article inclusion or exclusion but goes hand-in-hand with others like WP:BIO1E, WP:VERIFIABILITY, Biographies of living persons, WP:NMODEL, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, What Wikipedia is not, and Copyrights, as well as any I might have missed.


 * If 2nd runner up, means there are three winners in India, do you not agree that readers should be able to find this out without confusion? It is important enough to be in the 2nd paragraph of the lead. This might certainly be important, if the event she currently won is not really significant enough (lacking secondary coverage) to warrant a stand-alone article, especially "if" she does not win Miss Grand International 2016, as being a winner in Campus Princess 2016 does not qualify. Otr500 (talk) 18:37, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Otr500, you are right, this fact should be mentioned in the main article of Femina Miss India that even placing as first Runner up or second Ru is considered as a win. You have stated this example of - [Self-promotion and publicity (WP:SPIP) it states "The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the topic itself (or of its manufacturer, creator, author, inventor, or vendor) have actually considered the topic notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works of their own that focus upon it—without incentive, promotion, or other influence by people connected to the topic matter"''. This can definitely be applied to articles like Rashi Yadav which I accept, but not this one. If you check the references of this article again, majority of the references are from reputed primary sources.

Actually both Pankhuri Gidwani - Miss India Grand and Priyadarshini Chatterjee - Miss World India are considered as having equal victories, even though Pankhuri is 2nd runner up, all the contestants who have made it to the top - 3 are considered as winners. And this same format is operational in Femina Miss India from the pageant's inception. If Priyadarshini Chatterjee is notable enough to have an article featured in Wiki, even Phankuri is actually notable to have an article as even she is considered as equal winner.
 * This article has many primary sources as references and this person has won Femina Miss India. This article shouldn't be deleted and this person is notable by all of Wikipedia's standards and does not violate any rules like Biographies of living persons, WP:NMODEL, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, What Wikipedia is not, and Copyrights. So this article should not be deleted, rather it can be improved.

CyberBrinda (comment) 12:57, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete she was 2nd-runner up in a beauty pageant. This is not enough to make someone notable. The coverage is routine and one event coverage.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Not enough coverage. She won 2nd runner only in a national pageant and her name is already in the wiki article Femina Miss India 2016.Richie Campbell (talk) 17:39, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete: Although she did not finish at first place makes her ineligible for inclusion per WP:NMODEL; the coverage she did receive for being a participant and thereafter and there should hopefully be more coming soon, can make a convincing case of WP:GNG. I was able to find few sources in Hindi:, , , , , .. but we need a bit more, something unrelated to Femina Miss India to bypass WP:BIO1E. Anup   [Talk]  02:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.