Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Panthers–Seahawks rivalry (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Evidence has been presented verifying that Panthers-Seahawks has been described as a rivalry. However, there is also consensus, which has changed over time, that these sources do not establish notability per our guidelines. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:19, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Panthers–Seahawks rivalry
AfDs for this article: 
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Two teams that occasionally meet don't automatically constitute a rivalry. No proof of it here. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:50, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:51, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete nothing to indicate this is a rivalry and just a listing of games played. Nice research.  But like another recent AFD, I believe this is also information best suited for a sports almanac and not an encyclopedia.  Try another wiki.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete There are many sources presented at the previous AfD and while they discuss the nature of a "rivalry" they don't actually talk about a rivalry - most of the references are in passing or question whether the teams should be rivals, as opposed to talking about any hatred that may actually constitute a rivalry. WP:NRIVALRY says it must pass WP:GNG and I don't see WP:GNG being met in the sense that there's evidence these two teams consider themselves rivals. I think this was kept in 2016 because enough articles use the word "rivalry." Other articles discuss the rivalry between the teams' quarterbacks and not the rivalry amongst the teams themselves, and we see similar articles written and deleted for college football non-rivalries because some sportswriter, hungry to create content, decides the teams may be "rivals." SportingFlyer  T · C  21:18, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep as we have plenty of rivalry articles on Wikipedia. Cabeyi (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2020 (UTC) User blocked indefinitely as LTA, see log. -- Kinu  t/c 07:34, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. USA Today said in 2016 it's "becoming a 'must-see TV' rivalry" (bolding mine), but it's too lopsided and there are no really memorable games, so (from the vantage point of a longtime Seahawks fan) the emotion/animosity of a real rivalry just isn't there. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. There isn't enough reliable sourcing that refers to this as a rivalry. As it stands, the article is nothing more than a game log with a weakly-sourced history section that simply rehashes when they've met and under what circumstances. There is content, but there is nothing substantive to suggest that anyone considers this to be any more of an actual rivalry than any two randomly-selected teams in the league. -- Kinu t/c 07:46, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

<li>Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Articles for deletion/Panthers–Seahawks rivalry was closed in 2016. Here are four sources published in 2018 and 2020: <ol> <li></li> <li> The article notes (my bolding): "You don’t need to be in the same division to have a true rivalry in the NFL. There are plenty of teams that have bitter histories with one another despite not having to play twice a year. Think of 49ers-Cowboys, Patriots-Colts, Giants-49ers, Seahawks-Panthers and more recently Saints-Vikings. On Sunday, the Seahawks and Packers add another chapter to their growing rivalry that has already seen them play twice in the playoffs and a handful of times in the regular season with exciting or strange outcomes. Let’s take a look at five of those games."</li> <li> The article notes: "The Seahawks and Panthers have developed an unlikely rivalry over the past half-decade or so, one which really ignited when they split back-to-back Divisional Round playoff games in the 2014 and 2015 seasons (each time the winner went on to lose the Super Bowl). Sunday's clash in Charlotte is almost as important as those two games - the victor puts themselves into pole position in the NFC wild card race."</li> <li> The article notes (my bolding): "Winning seven of nine games in a rivalry and two-straight certainly qualifies as a tremendous success but history tends to forget how those games were won. Carroll hasn't and although he's happy to get a season-changing road win that allows them to control their playoff fortunes; he's not ready to call anything 'dominant.' But then again, the Panthers probably don't care what you call it. In nine games, they have seven losses to one of their biggest non-division rivals. When they play next, that fact will undoubtedly dominate their minds if nothing else."</li> </ol>Here are two sources from 2016:<ol> <li> The article notes (my bolding): "The Panthers and Seattle Seahawks have met so often the past four seasons, it’s almost like they’re division rivals – if not for the 2,500 miles that separate them. Sunday’s divisional-round game at Bank of America Stadium will be the sixth time Carolina (15-1) and Seattle (11-6) have played since 2012, including the Panthers’ playoff loss at Seattle last January. The teams will meet again next season in Seattle for a seventh time in five seasons. The Observer looks at the recent games in one of the NFL’s more interesting – and improbable – rivalries:"</li> <li> The article notes (my bolding): "Carolina might not always be in the Seahawks’ minds, as James Taylor sang in the 1970s, but it does seem to often be in their way. For two franchises on opposite coasts and in separate divisions, the Seahawks and Panthers have developed an unlikely rivalry in recent years, crossing paths both with an unusual frequency and at particularly critical times, especially for Seattle. They will do so again Sunday when the Seahawks play at Carolina in a divisional playoff game, the Panthers once again standing between Seattle and the Super Bowl. In all, the teams have met eight times in the regular season and twice in the postseason — both of those in years in which the Seahawks advanced to the Super Bowl.  Six of those meetings have come since Pete Carroll took over as the Seahawks’ coach in 2010, meaning they have faced Carolina more than any other non-NFC West team in that time. We could just list the games the Seahawks have played against Carolina. Instead, we thought we’d rate them in order of importance."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow the Panthers–Seahawks rivalry to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * The Daily Telegraph said in 2018, "The Seahawks and Panthers have developed an unlikely rivalry over the past half-decade or so, one which really ignited when they split back-to-back Divisional Round playoff games in the 2014 and 2015 seasons (each time the winner went on to lose the Super Bowl)." Bonneville International said in 2020, "their growing rivalry that has already seen them play twice in the playoffs and a handful of times in the regular season with exciting or strange outcomes". In 2018, 247Sports.com in reference to Seahawks and Panthers called the former "one of their biggest non-division rivals".  The Athletic published an article in 2018 with the headline: "One of the NFL’s weirdest, long-distance rivalries: How Panthers vs. Seahawks became what it is today".  The Charlotte Observer said in 2016 that the Seahawks and Panthers are "one of the NFL's more interesting – and improbable – rivalries".  The Seattle Times said in 2016, "the Seahawks and Panthers have developed an unlikely rivalry in recent years, crossing paths both with an unusual frequency and at particularly critical times, especially for Seattle".  Multiple reliable sources have said that the Panthers and the Seahawks have a rivalry. The sources have explained how this rivalry started and continued.  Cunard (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: Pinging Articles for deletion/Panthers–Seahawks rivalry participants:, , , , , , , and . Cunard (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong keep See the above examples. Nothing has changed since the last AfD aside from new sources that only confirm the existence of this rivalry. Here's one from The Athletic calling it one of the "weirdest long distance rivalries", here's one from Sports Illustrated calling it a rivalry. There might have been less coverage due to NFL scheduling rules: they have only played twice in the last four years. But when they do play (which is still pretty often), it gets covered. For posterity, here's the sources I listed in the last AfD in 2016:


 * The Charlotte Observer
 * Seattle Times
 * USA Today
 * Rolling Stone
 * ESPN
 * The Sports Daily
 * KGW.com
 * KGW.com (again)
 * Field Gulls
 * WCCB Charlotte
 * The Score
 * Associated Press
 * 24/7 Sports
 * Rant Sports
 * Cat Scratch Reader
 * The Sports Daily (again)
 * Fox Sports
 * Charlotte Observer

<i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 13:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - I don't see what changed from the last AfD that would make me change my !vote.Rlendog (talk) 18:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Why are there so many delete !votes when there are sources found? Because this isn't actually a rivalry. This says this "isn't really much of a rivalry." This implies they were once rivals but aren't anymore, which isn't really the definition of rivalry we look for. This calls it an "unofficial" rivalry, this uses the word rivalry in quotes. The Seahawks don't consider this a rivalry. Also, NFL writers use the definition of rivalry willy-nilly, this one calls Seahawks-Patriots the best rivalry in football and no one is claiming that's even close to a rivalry. SportingFlyer  T · C  19:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So in other words we have a ton of sources that consider this a rivalry and a tiny handful that either don't consider it one or think that the rivalry has faded (in which case it's still a notable rivalry for the period of time they were rivals). Not really that convincing. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 19:34, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Neither are any of the articles here brought over from 2016 that claim to make this pass WP:GNG. Many of them only use rivals in a passing mention, the best isn't an RS but rather a Panthers fan blog, several don't discuss the rivalry but rather the rivalry between the two quarterbacks. We're putting way too much emphasis on how sportswriters have described a few of the games these teams played against each other, mostly out of passing mentions. No one actually thinks of this as a rivalry in the true sense of the word - it's nowhere near Washington-Washington State, for instance - which is the very reason why it's been nominated for AfD twice. SportingFlyer  T · C  20:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Clearly no one thinks it's a rivalry because there are no articles about it and editors didn't say keep last time. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 01:11, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, not Pete Carroll, for one. And UW Dawgs had a pretty persuasive argument at the last AfD about the overuse of "rivals/rivalry" by American sports journalists. SportingFlyer  T · C  01:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have semiprotected both the article and this AfD due to persistent sockpuppetry and harassment. I had been hesitating to do so, as I have !voted above and am thus involved, but enough is enough. If another administrator feels it fit to undo this action, then feel free. -- <strong style="color:blue">Kinu <i style="color: red">t</i>/<i style="color:red">c</i> 10:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Clearly routine coverage which fails WP:GNG policy. UW Dawgs (talk) 03:13, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I agree with Kinu, no enough reliable sourcing that refers to this as a rivalry. Ms4263nyu (talk) 10:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Not every combination of two teams that play each other semi-regularly is really a notable rivalry, nor does the use of a word sports writers love to throw around warrant an article that's merely game results even if a supposed rivalry exists. No teams are friends and anyone you play is your rival, this is how sports works. Reywas92Talk 03:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Cunard's sources make me convinced that this is an actual rivalry. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 18:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Yes, the series briefly became competitive in 2015 and 2016, resulting in some coverage invoking the "R" word, but the series lacks many of the classic indicia of a true rivalry, e.g., frequency of play (total of only 14 games [compare Bears–Packers with 200 games]), long history (series began 2000), geographic proximity (at 2,800 miles, about as far as two NFL cities can get), and competitiveness (Seattle has 10–4 record). Given everything, I think it's premature to consider this a notable rivalry for encyclopedia purposes. Cbl62 (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete There's no rivalry here. Teams that play against each other does not constitute a rivalry. Talk about past games between two teams is WP:ROUTINE coverage that always happens in a week leading up to two NFL teams playing. If this were considered a rivalry then any two teams in the NFL could be considered one. Sulfurboy (talk) 00:38, 5 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.