Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Parktown Boys' High School


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep as improved. Consensus is clear. BD2412 T 18:34, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Parktown Boys' High School

 * – ( View AfD View log )

This school doesn't appear to be notable. Since all the references in the article are primary, extremely trivial, or about other things besides the school. Like obituaries for people that have gone there. Plus, I was unable to find the multiple in-depth reliable sources that direct discuss the school that it would need to pass either WP:GNG or WP:NORG, and high schools are not inherently notable per the RfC about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone  08:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone  08:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone  08:27, 23 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. If a high-school that produced various politicians, olympians, artists etc., all backed up with reliable secondary sources, isn't notable, then we'd be deleting 99% of the schools on Wikipedia.--Eklektikos (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the hyperbull. The pointless fear mongering aside can you point to three in-depth sources about the school that are currently in the article? Adamant1 (talk) 17:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope 'hyperbull' is a misspelling of 'hyperbole,' because calling my comment 'hyperbull[shit]' is neither considerate nor respectful, whether you agree with me or not.--Eklektikos (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes it is. Sorry. Phone edit, done in desktop mode to. Which isn't really the best way to do this. Blame my choppy home internet though. Adamant1 (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I've found some South African news sources: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; more can be found through Google News, but I don't know if they're reliable. There's also scholarly coverage: 6, 7, 8, 9. The vast majority of coverage seems to relate to scandals involving the school rather than the school itself: if these are the only reliable sources we can find, most of the article's current content would have to be removed. There is book-length coverage: The Lion Roars: Parktown Boys' High School : 1920-1999 by Nan O'Carroll (Google Books), but I cannot verify its reliability because I could not find more information about the author or the publisher. Wikinights (talk) 22:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Just giving the news coverage a quick glance I'd say no. The first one is an opinion piece, the second one is about the principle being let go from a local source (which is pretty trivial), the third is exactly the same thing (It doesn't even talk about the school and this isn't an article about the principle), the forth one is exactly the same thing (about the principle, not the school, local news source, etc. etc.), same for the fifth. Wikipedia isn't a news site anyway. So, none of those work. The first scholarly article is about "boys at schools dying" and only mentions the school briefly in refence to a kid that died (which is what the news articles on the principle are about and again not really about the school itself per say), the second one is about a coach who molested some kids at the school (which, again, isn't really about the school), the third is about some kids who beat some other kids at a hostel that is slightly related to the school somehow, but not the school. The book might work though. I'd probably give it a pass. I'm not sure how it fits in with everything else though. If you take the book, then it's one source that might or might be reliable. It's clearly in-depth though. So, at least that's something. As a side thing, based on the sources other then the book you could make a good argument for there to be an article about the boy who drowned and the principle. It seems like both have in-depth sustained coverage. I don't think it means anything for this articles notability that they do though. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:BIAS is an essay and therefore not relevent to this. Also, I'm not sure what's so hard for you to understand about "I was unable to find the multiple in-depth reliable sources that directly discuss the school", but I was pretty clear in the nomination that I did a BEFORE. A bunch of articles about a kid drawning, while tragic or whatever ultimately have nothing to do with the school and that's anyone including me have been able to find. Maybe next time read the nomination before you vote and either provide some in-depth sources that are actually revelant or just don't participate, because just citing an essay and giving the nominator flake for something isint helpful or constructive. Its not going to result in the article being kept either. Only finding good quality, usable sources will and at this point there just isn't any. Adamant1 (talk) 13:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * , The Lion Roars: Parktown Boys' High School is published by Black and Red Books, an organisation established by Fredy Perlman in 1968. I'd say it's probably reliable for basic factual details, but a quick look at the website suggests they have an "anti-authoritarian" POV. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not the correct publisher you're referencing (blackandred.org). 1. The Google Search  turns up nothing. 2. The website catalog (link) does not list The Lion Roars. 3. The website "About Us" (link) says it is published in the U.S., no mention of South Africa. However, worldcat.org says it was published in Johannesburg:,  Wikinights (talk) 18:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete — Per rationale provided by . Celestina007 (talk) 23:44, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Most of the press I can find about this school is negative - sadly a student drowned this year and so it has been all over the news, and this also tragic article from a few years ago and while the article is short, has been discussed by politicians: . I also think the sources demonstrated above pass WP:GNG very easily and I disagree with all of the arguments which are trying to knock out the news coverage of the school. It's clearly notable. SportingFlyer  T · C  08:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep One of the more notable schools in South Africa and almost 100 years old. SA newspapers have not yet digitised like American newspapers - be careful of WP:BIAS against African schools who don't enjoy the same level of coverage as their first world counterparts, which the nom seems to be targeting as part of a clean up. And please remember WP:BEFORE - its up to the nom to look for additional sources before AfD, don't just rely on what is in the article Gbawden (talk) 11:16, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, the school is one of the most notable in South Africa and has made national news in South Africa for years. The amount of media coverage on the tragic death is far, far beyond what is required for notability, but most importantly, the school has received coverage dating back years. Your comment here is also exceptionally concerning. You are not the gatekeeper for this article. We're allowed to look at the sources and do our own BEFORE searches and determine that the school is notable through participating in the AfD process. In this instance, there are many, many possible sources we could use to make this a good quality article. SportingFlyer  T · C  17:50, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:AFD says "Articles for deletion (AfD) is where Wikipedians discuss whether an article should be deleted." The last time I checked nominators are allowed to be a part of that discussion and them doing so isn't being a gatekeeper. If you can't handle someone saying that they don't think your sources work, then either find better sources or find other things to participate in. Making accusations about the intent of commenters or anything along those lines is off topic and isn't helpful though. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:00, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The sources are fine. Stop bludgeoning these discussions. SportingFlyer  T · C  18:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Commenting twice isn't bludgeoning. Unless your an authoritarian. It's also the same amount you've commented. Don't Wikilawyer. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per identified sources. — Toughpigs (talk) 19:51, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per sources. African schools tend to be at a disadvantage on Wikipedia because of the difficulty in identifying sources. A key pointer to this school's notability might be the source which identifies Parktown Boys' as the 33rd best school in Africa, a continent of 1.2 billion people. But for multiple sources Google Scholar is your friend, weighing in with 91 hits - some of which source notable alumni, and others which discuss the school in some depth and support a general claim to notability on the grounds of age, prestige and quality. (Plus Ninja is an ex-student...) Humansdorpie (talk) 22:41, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I could be wrong, but I don't think Ninja being an ex-student really has any baring on this. Nor does most of what else you said. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:56, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per rationale of & . I'll dig around for further sources when I have time, but the sources there are sufficient for now imo. --DSQ  (talk) 08:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Which sources "there" do you think are sufficient? --Adamant1 (talk) 13:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Those which have been flagged up for you above. The Oxford Review of Education Journal describes it as an "elite public school..one of the oldest and best-performing schools in the country". Which is exactly what it is. It's not just some random High School. It has a long, illustrious history and produced more than its fair share of politicians, business people and prominent academics. Swathes of the current article could (and should) be culled, but that's all. --DSQ (talk) 20:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep I have copyedited the article a bit, removed some content that doesn't look encyclopedic, and added some sources including a detailed account of the school in Independent Online, and some citations for several notable alumni including Henry Benson, Baron Benson. AfD is not cleanup. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:33, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No one said AfD was cleanup or that this was about cleanup. I know I sure as hell didn't. Adamant1 (talk) 14:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.