Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was redirect to List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre. There might be mergeable content here, but that is an editorial decision. --Core desat 07:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Beyond being killed at Virginia Tech, nothing notable about him. See also the still open Articles for deletion/Waleed Shaalan and Articles for deletion/Emily J. Hilscher, and the closed Articles for deletion/Ryan C. Clark, which resulted in a redirection to Virginia Tech massacre. Any information about commendations from Indonesia etc can be included in List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre (if it survives AFD). Evil Monkey - Hello 22:41, 22 April 2007 (UTC) Update: The AFD on Emily J. Hilscher has been closed with the result being redirect to Virginia Tech massacre. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep because he is notable for saving Gil Colman's life —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.197.205 (talk) 02:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Speedy Keep, because victim in one of the worst and most media covered school shootings ever. People WILL want to know about this person and it seems that more information is being added as to his notability by the moment.  Very bad faith nomination . . . :( --172.167.132.145 23:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC) — 172.167.132.145 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment. How is this a bad faith nomination? Natalie 00:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment is it just me or have I seen that exact same text used before? Tejastheory 00:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Bad faith"? I seriously do believe that this article should be deleted, and am not trying to disrupt Wikipedia in anyway. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete This person has exactly zero notability. As per the debates over the professor articles, I think a clear consensus has been reached over those that simply being a victim of the event is not nearly enough to be "notable".  Rather, all of those are kept or delete according to their notability in academic or research terms.  As a student, I don't think any serious academic notability will ever be found, and simply being a victim is not enough. Tejastheory 00:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I like the idea of having the article, but have trouble justifying this person's notably aside from their having made a stand to stop a shooter. While doing that was really awesome and deserves recognition, Wikipedia isn't the place to do that unless he receives something like the Medal of Freedom. --Matthew 00:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete and Redirect to Virginia Tech Massacre or List of victims in the Virginia Tech Massacre. No new reasons here that haven't been said before, just take a look at the reasons in Emily J. Hilscher and Ryan C. Clark's AfDs.  Rock star  ( T/C ) 01:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Virginia Tech massacre. Wikipedia is not for memorials and that's what this seems to be. eaolson 01:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete and redirect. Golly, this is beginning to seem like the film Groundhog Day: another day, another VT AfD. Can we stop this repetitive nonsense and speedy delete any future "articles"? All the previous arguments still apply, in particular, non-notable. WWGB 01:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I assume that every single victim will have a page made sooner or later. Maybe we should go ahead and create pages for all the victims and just redirect them back to the list? That would probably save some time later. Rock star  ( T/C ) 01:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Not a bad idea - that might communicate the message that the issue has already been discussed and is settled, but of course it doesn't prevent anyone from editing the redirect. Natalie 01:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know (unfortunately), but I would hope that it would give the impression that -- exactly what you said -- there has already been a discussion on the subject. This is definitely getting old quickly. Rock star  ( T/C ) 01:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - should be in EnviroGranny 01:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Could you elaborate on why you think this person should have an article? "Should be in" doesn't give the administrator who closes the discussion much to go on. Thanks! Natalie 01:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. It should also be noted that List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre just closed as a keep, citing that the members of the list were notable collectively, not individually. Rock star  ( T/C ) 02:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 *  Speedy Keep Keep(Corrected). Notable due to extensive media coverage. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.170.95.224 (talk) 03:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC); Corrected (talk) 03:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Under which conditions would this AfD fall under the criteria for speedy keep? Rock star  ( T/C ) 03:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep The information is coming from multiple reliable sources, notability is inherent in the coverage. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 03:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sigh... same question as above. Under which conditions would this AfD fall under the criteria for speedy keep? Notice the link this time. Rock star  ( T/C ) 03:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete or Redirect - not a notable individual ugen64 03:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete and Merge any relevant information into List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre. That is the most appropriate place for this. He does not appear to be any more notable than any of the other students who died. Thus, there is no reason for a seperate article. Rafy 04:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: "delete and merge" is not possible under the GFDL. --Dhartung | Talk 05:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete -- is not a professor nor is distinguished in any way -- attention to him is brought entirely because of his (tragic) participation in the events at VTech.Pablosecca 04:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete or redirect to the main article. Wikipedia is not a memorial, and beiung killed is not enough to justify an article. Wikipedia is also not a newsmagazine with the top events of the week. See the essay WP:NOTNEWS for the views of several editors on this issue. Edison 05:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre, for same reasons as Pablosecca. --Dhartung | Talk 05:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as i have said for the others. They have received major individual news overage, or they surely will. The NYT and the Washington Post and the Chronicle of Higher Ed. are all doing separate stories on each; their regional newspaper will as well. Even without broadcast coverage, that makes four. If the consensus does turn out otherwise, it implies major changes for WP:N, for it says that sourcing, no matter how much or how reliable, is no longer enough for a WP article. the sourcing requirement wa the one thread holding us together, but I'm prepared to work without it. DGG 05:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the list or the main massacre page. --Witchinghour 05:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NOT a memorial. His entry on the Resistance portion of the main VT massacre article is enough. &mdash; O cat ecir  Talk  09:06, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the list article as we did for that first victim, and we really need to do this for all the victims. The instant AFD debates that pop up are getting old. --Korranus 09:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre. But fill all the information about the victims there as much as possible. I would love to keep this article though, but since I'm an amateur and don't really understand how Wikipedia works, I'm following the majority. He's notable enough though in my understanding, for his heroic act and such. Arie Riswandy 14:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete/Redirect As with several other victims, no notability established beyond being a victim. Nom gives a good set of links for similar cases. StuffOfInterest 11:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre, as was done with Emily Hilscher. I will support this article's recreation if Mr. Lumbantoruan becomes notable beyond having died in the massacre. Jeff Silvers 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre; The information is contained in that article in greater detail; there is no need for a separate article on each of the victims, lest they have independent notability (as some of the VT staff do) --Mhking 12:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete/redirect as in the three latest AfD discussions of VT victims. Victim of a tragedy, but no other assertions for notability. Medico80 12:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Most of you are missing the point of Notability. The point isn't to enforce rules for the sake of enforcing rules, the point is to eliminate articles we can never hope to write a decent article on.  As DGG said, there will be more reliable media coverage on this guy than a substantial portion of our other biographicala rticles.  As an aside, I strongly disagre with the above assertion that if we did X for Y person before, that means anytime Y comes up we should do X.  No, if a mistake was made before there's no reason to repeat it for the sake of repeating mistakes.Chris Croy 13:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What mistakes? I'm just saying that there is no need to have this discussion 32 times. Medico80 14:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Medico80 -- which mistakes? Chris, what you're saying is that the community was wrong in its consensus, and more than once... interesting choice of words when Wikipedia is based on consensus. I'm sorry that you don't like the outcome, but we're building an encyclopedia, and apparently that's easy to forget. Rock star  ( T/C ) 16:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The mistakes were the previous AfD's. Consensus changes.  Sometimes it 'changes' solely based on who decided to show at AFD or which admin cleaned up the backlog.  I say again: How someone acquires notability is completely irrelevent.  If they are, they are, and that's it.Chris Croy 17:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Redirect per precedent set by Emily J. Hilscher AfD. Subject does not seem notable enough to warrant a unique article. --ElKevbo 16:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep for reasons above and strong recreate of Emily J.'s article because MSNBC has been reporting throughout the day that police HAVE identified evidence of at least email contact of Cho and E.J. and therefore her role in this historical tragedy is garnering additional news attention and its encylopedic and research value is increasing daily. --164.107.223.217 21:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't see any such articles on the MSNBC website. Evil Monkey - Hello 21:33, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * We really should wait until the news coverage has stopped before we decide which articles should be deleted and which are recreated for two reasons: 1) Notability will fluctuate in the next few weeks, and 2) after the news coverage has ended, there will be much less chance of our AfDs and DRVs being canvassed by SPAs and possible sockpuppets. We also should not forget that the List of victims was kept specifically because the group was notable, not the individuals. Rock star  ( T/C ) 03:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable bio. WP is not a memorial. --Keb25 03:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete: he obviously wasn't notable before this, and his death in this situation doesn't make him sufficiently notable now. Nyttend 17:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect or merge with list of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre. --Ixfd64 01:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. Not notable. Christopher Connor 15:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Notable.  This article will not set a bad example for further 'unencyclopedic' inclusions.  This isn't someone writing about a local band.  Evidence is that Mr. Lumbantoruan gave his life to save another potential victim.  Joel K. &#39;Jay&#39; Furr 19:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. per Joel K. &#39;Jay&#39; Furr. --Neo-Jay 10:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete and merge with main article Virginia Tech Massacre, the VT students (including emily, ryan) are not yet notable with publications, honours, awards. However, the individual pages of VT faculty / professor victims should be kept (ref librescu, loganathan, granata). Also precedent on deletion and merging has already taken place on Emily, Ryan, Waleed Shalan's articles. (Personally I'm sad having to delete this article because he's Indonesian just like me, and from the same University as me, but we have to be consistent. No page for students, but give pages for prominent faculties based on WP:PROF) Chaerani 04:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.