Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Parvardigar Prayer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 21:08, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Parvardigar Prayer

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I fail to see an iota of out-of-Meher Baba-universe notability of the subject and/or any non-trivial significant coverage about the subject, except in his biographies and hagiographies, which has devoted some pages to it.Notability isn't inherited.

Deletion or a redirection to Meher baba sought, as at Articles for deletion/Prayer of Repentance and Articles for deletion/Meher Baba's missing book, which dealt with very similar articles.

This t/p thread may provide some backgound aspects on the issue. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.  MT Train Talk 07:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  MT Train Talk 07:45, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment The only background aspects I see in the link you provide above is that one of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia, i.e. WP:5P4, means absolutely nothing to you. "What kind of whacko does write a biography -etc" refers to a fellow Wikipedian, I see accusations of "vested interests", expressed suspicion of myself as "um" (evidently Dazed's sock) and tons of bad faith, let alone the bias expressed against the topic. I am surprized you even link openly to this thread as background aspects. You are also openly sarcastic towards me in related AfDs, although I am treating you with due etiquette. Hoverfish Talk 22:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Sources, please..... ~ Winged Blades Godric 02:37, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If you see me vote Keep, ask me for sources, please. Hoverfish Talk 21:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's what the page says about the prayer: "The prayer is one of three frequently recited prayers by followers at gatherings, long with the Prayer of Repentance and the Beloved God Prayer. The three prayers are recited morning and evening at Meher Baba's samadhi in Ahmednagar, India at 7:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. each day, followed by devotional songs which compose Baba's aarti." If this is true, the prayer is pretty notable. Wouldn't it have been kinder of the nominator to recognize when something is probably notable, and before nominating it for outright removal would think, maybe once in awhile, of putting a "citations needed" tag on the page instead? Randy Kryn (talk) 02:21, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * --I don't doubt that is false but that isn't an indicator of notability.Secondary-sources covering the subject in a non-trivial manner, are. ~ Winged Blades Godric 03:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Well secondary sources can't be found as this group of people keep their beliefs to themselves as a discipline. It will take future developments to get to where some independent theologians or academics make papers about them. If this means that it HAS to be deleted, it is pretty much undefensible (no nukes needed, all it takes is a simple stab in the back). Therein lies the kindness and understanding on behalf of the nominator. And I am not saying this as in "oh we poor ones, etc", neither do I wish to act as a lawyer for them. If I sound lawyer-ish, it is on behalf of Wikipedia as an informative medium (no, not just ANY info, and no, I do not think that I am saving the day for Wikipedia on this). There has been an effort to include here some basic information in a NPOV way about this group. Dazedbtb has done a good job in this, although maybe he has gone too far in some areas in the past. If all we must see is black-or-white, all information relevant to the Meher Baba movement will be obliterated, with LOSS from the side of Wikipedia, rather than any real gain of "spam-cleaning". Don't expect me please to vote "keep" here or in other prayers or in the Parvardigar (film), unless I see that what is being proposed is really central to the philosophy of Meher Baba, like his very few books and very few terms and concepts we have. Thank you. Hoverfish Talk 06:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 20:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC).
 * Keep and add a "sources needed " tag, a very important prayer to the subject and of Wikipedia's collection on this fellow. Wikipedia is built of individual collections of topics, almost each one most likely the best neutral encyclopedic coverage of that particular topic in existence. Even while asking for sourced coverage the nominator admits notability likely exists, because it is obvious this topic is extremely well-covered and historically discussed. Just not by the right people, who get to choose who is notable and who isn't. Meher Baba is notable, that's been decided, and this is one of his main prayers (and no, I am not a disciple, acquaintance, or reader of his material, and have never said, read, or chanted one of his prayers), and the main prayers of a long-time worshipped religious figure should find exception and be among the things from which notability can be inherited. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've never admitted anything of that sort.notability must be demonstrated or else the article must be purged......As simple as that. ~ Winged Blades Godric 14:32, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * - "and the main prayers of a long-time worshipped religious figure should find exception and be among the things from which notability can be inherited" is a very significant thing to be claiming and certainly isn't something either you, or even everyone in this AfD could decide - it would need to be discussed specifically as a notability change. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:47, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Wow! Thanks for pointing that:) I missed that line and umm.....mind-boggling would be an understatement.Sigh..... ~ Winged Blades Godric 12:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:NPRAYER would certainly be the most interesting guideline in the whole set ... Nosebagbear (talk) 12:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   09:20, 10 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.