Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pat Baker


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. There is no consensus whether the subject fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:07, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Pat Baker

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. PROD contested by author. Claiming that he's a professional soccer player. This is the same argument we, for some reason, continue to have with almost every article that has been deproded. Indoor soccer is not fully pro. – Michael (talk) 23:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. – Michael (talk) 00:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - per nom. He has not played in a fully pro league or received significant coverage, meaning the article fails WP:NSPORT and WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 01:04, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Missouri-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 01:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 01:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - Yes, he did play in a fully professional soccer league. To claim otherwise is puzzling.  Mohrflies (talk) 02:19, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * To claim that he did when in reality, he didn't, is puzzling. Those sources are not going to cut it. – Michael (talk) 02:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * All the sources I gave were legitimate sources. However, if they don't convince you, do these?
 * 1980 New York Times article about Cosmos wanting to play in the MISL. First, the Cosmos at their height in 1980 were going semi-pro?  I never knew that.  Second, why was the New York Times doing a big article on a semi-pro athletic league?
 * 1982 New York Times article regarding a new MISL player contract with the league. According to the Times, this none professional league made an agreement that "club owners will retain television revenues and the players will receive higher salaries, per diem, termination pay and playoff revenues. Minimum salaries were increased to $2,000 a month."  What are these non-professionals doing making a minimum of $2000 per month?
 * 1984 New York Times article on NASL teams moving to MISL, which had a "television network contract" and required the NASL teams to post a "$400,000 entry fee and a $250,000 letter of credit."
 * 1984 New York Times article about the Phoenix Pride selling the contracts of the last nine players on the team after losing $2.2 million. How could the team sell contracts for players who weren't getting paid?  And how did a team that didn't have professional players lose $2.2 million in a year?
 * 1986 New York Times article about MISL teams refusing to release players for the World Cup. Best quote, "The M.I.S,L. team owners contend that the players have contracts and that their first duty is to their teams."  What contracts?  They were a bunch of amateurs.  They could just get some time off from their day jobs, quit those non-professional teams and go play in the World Cup.
 * 1986 New York Times article about team-owner rebellion against league commissioner. Best quotes: "Stern said he had done his part in cutting back on high-priced players."  What high-priced players? They were a bunch of non-professionals.
 * 1986 Chicago Tribune article about an MISL player's contract. I had no idea a non-professional soccer player could pull down $80,000-$90,000 a season.
 * 1987 New York Times article about some guy playing in the MISL who keeps talking about how he is a professional soccer player. Odd.
 * 1987 New York Times article on failure of the New York Express. The team planned to go public (sell stock like Manchester United just did).  Sounds pretty amateur to me.
 * 1989 LA Times article about the collapse of the Los Angeles Lazers. Good quote: "Lazer (and Los Angeles Lakers) owner Jerry Buss, who has reportedly lost more than $7 million on the franchise since its inception."  What is a big-time professional sports guy like Jerry Buss doing losing millions on some semi-pro team?
 * This weird article from 1990 states, "There are currently two professional leagues in operation, the more commonly-known Major Indoor Soccer League . . ."
 * According to the Baltimore Sun in 1991, "Hale said he wants to invite all nine members of the NPSL into the MISL. "We would be the largest professional soccer league in the country if all nine teams came in," he said. However, Hale said he doesn't expect all nine NPSL teams to meet the "requirements" of the MSL.  One of the main stumbling blocks to a consolidation of NPSL teams with the MSL is the difference in salary caps between the two leagues.  The MSL has a team salary cap of $755,000; the NPSL cap is about $300,000.  MSL players have been asked to take sizable pay cuts over the past three years and probably would protest further reductions."  What I don't understand is how all the players on these teams have professional contracts when they aren't professionals.
 * Here's the point, nobody with any knowledge of the MISL would claim it was not a fully professional league. To first make that claim, then to dismiss soccer historians such as Colin Jose, Dave Litterer, Roger Allaway and Steve Holroyd, whose reputations far exceed any of us, with the flippant phrase, "Those sources are not going to cut it" shows a profound arrogance.  So, I've put up my sources.  Now, put up your sources showing the MISL was not professional.  Mohrflies (talk) 04:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Player's career was during the time he played in the league, which was the highest level of American soccer due to the outdoor leagues not catching on at the time. No problem found here.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 02:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you even look at WP:FPL? Doesn't matter if it was the highest level of American soccer at the time, it's not fully pro. – Michael (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 08:50, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per Mohrflies points. Judicatus | Talk 19:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Indoor soccer players were not making a living just from that and the MISL is not in the list of "fully professional leagues".204.126.132.231 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong keep per Mohrflies  D u s t i *Let's talk!* 19:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep I see no reason to continue the practice that the highest level of national competition in a major nation must be fully professional to qualify the players for an article. This biases our coverage of the sport to those countries where it is professional, instead of giving world-wide coverage like we're supposed to. This is the first time I've used the Cultural Bias argument to argue cultural bias against the US, but I see no reason to use it only in the other direction.  DGG ( talk ) 20:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 10:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Relist comment I'm relisting this because in all the arguments about whether the MISL is a professional league, GNG seems to be being ignored. Black Kite (talk) 10:19, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - this is indeed a tricky one; The league he played is was a fully pro as a lot of the leagues listed at WP:FPL was in the 1980s, as they became professional in the beginning of the 1990s. And we do consider amateur players as notable, if they played in a league that later became professional during the "amateur era", but this league became defunct before it turned fully pro. But regardless of the status of the league, we should examine whether or not this subject passes WP:GNG, but that isn't easy without access to offline sources. Even though the sources in the article isn't enough to pass WP:GNG, I believe there are more sources out there to be notable. Mentoz86 (talk) 08:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: Fails both WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG. The MISL is the top INDOOR league but it is not the top league in America (or was). Indoor soccer was and never will be probably a fully-professional sport. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.