Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pat Burgess


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The question is whether or not bullpen catchers are coaches, because WP:NBASEBALL says that all coaches are notable. I have found reliable sources saying that bullpen catchers are not coaches ("He is listed with the coaches in the team's media guide, but he is not a coach.") and others that say they are ("They are technically members of the coaching staff", "began his coaching career as bullpen catcher") so as far as I am concerned there is no "right answer" and it comes down to community consensus, which seems to favor keeping the article. Cerebellum (talk) 06:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Pat Burgess

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Bullpen catchers aren't inherently notable, and this one doesn't seem to have the sources to pass GNG (the sources provided are only trivial mentions). Wizardman 21:40, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Bullpen catchers aren't coaches any more than a batting practice pitcher is a coach. Also doesn't pass GNG. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. Team lists him as a coach, so he's a coach. No reason to intentionally create red links on all these team roster pages by deleting bullpen catchers.Spanneraol (talk)
 * Are you serious? Since when is a fear of creating "red links" a reason to keep a page that doesn't pass GNG? The clear, common-sense solution is to delete bullpen catchers from the roster pages. (And the team doesn't "list him as a coach"; it lists him WITH the coaches, for reasons I've explained before.) - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * DeleteFails WP:BASEBALL/N. The article also fails WP:GNG per Wizardman.  ΤheQ Editor  Talk? 20:23, 24 October 2014 (UTC) Keep WP:BASEBALL/N states that if the person ever appeared in a Major League Baseball at least once, then the player is notable.
 * You're making mistakes all over these AfDs. You should refrain from voting until you have a better understanding of things. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note to closing editor This guy never appeared in an MLB game. The above Keep vote is based on an erroneous justification. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep Appears in list of team coaches, therefore one can infer that he is considered a coach. Alex (talk) 00:31, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

So we now have three people saying keep, none of which are going by any guidelines, and some of which are completely backwards in reading them. I trust the closing admin will actually look at the weight of the comments rather than numbers. Wizardman 02:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I trust the closing administrator will note that Wizardman is erroneous in his above statement, as per WP:BASE/N: Individuals are notable if they "have served as a commissioner, president, general manager, owner, coach, or manager in one of the above-mentioned leagues [ie, Major League Baseball]." As the bullpen catchers are listed in conjunction with coaches on the team websites and assume coaching duties, then it is quite clear they fit the parameters of 'coach' and they therefore fit the guideline WP:BASE/N. Alex (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please stop with your trollish behavior. You've obviously been following the discussion in the Alan Butts AfD, so it's dishonest of you to continue claiming that bullpen catchers are coaches. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Uhh... but they are coaches. As we have proven time and time again, but which you continue to ignore. Alex (talk) 01:46, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You haven't proven anything. If you have, why did you suggest, in the Alan Butts AfD, that someone contact MLB to get a clarification? A couple people are just making things up out of thin air. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:44, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Additional source on Burgess. . Spanneraol (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep We decided the issue of bullpen catchers long ago. See Articles_for_deletion/Dan_Williams for example. Kinston eagle (talk) 00:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin Contrary to the above, nothing has been "decided" regarding bullpen catchers. The above AfD was a 6-4 keep! back in 2007, with multiple keep! voters using their own made-up interpretation of BASE/N. I have provided all sorts of proof that bullpen catchers aren't considered coaches by MLB, which certain people here are ignoring. If bullpen catchers were coaches, they would 1) count against MLB's seven-coach limit (which they currently do not), 2) have "coach" in their title, like EVERY OTHER COACH IN MLB, and 3) generate sufficient media citations such that BASE/N would be irrelevant, because the subjects would pass GNG. Not a single Wiki page for a current MLB pitching coach, hitting coach, bench coach, first base coach, third base coach, or bullpen coach is relying on BASE/N to justify the Wiki page's existence — every single one of them passes GNG based on media coverage. If bullpen catchers were really coaches, they, too, would generate huge amounts of media coverage, which all of these guys lack. (There are five pending AfDs for bullpen catchers, and not a one of them passes GNG based on media citations, which should tell us something about their notability.) It's time to use some common sense here. - Bbny-wiki-editor (talk) 05:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - The Rockies list him as a coach, not other staff.  I would not dispute the team's own classification. Rlendog (talk) 01:35, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.