Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pavel Snurnitsyn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. v/r - TP 17:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Pavel Snurnitsyn

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Non-notable hockey player, fails criteria of WP:NHOCKEY as well as the GNG; never played professional hockey nor met the criteria for notability of a junior player. Player died in the Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash, but this is a WP:ONEEVENT issue.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  10:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete or Redirect to the crash article. Unfortunately this is a WP:BLP1E situation. -DJSasso (talk) 12:00, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep I think Fayerman has found enough for me. Just need to add them to the article. -DJSasso (talk) 17:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Redirect to the Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pretty Green (talk • contribs)
 * Redirect to Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash. As the creator of this article, and with my sincere condolences to this young man's family and friends, while it is likely that foreign-language press has more coverage about this talented young hockey player, until it can be demonstrated that he passes WP:GNG, I agree that this article should be redirected. Dolovis (talk) 14:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The sources found by Fayerman demonstrate that this player passes WP:GNG. Dolovis (talk) 04:20, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've no objection, of course, to a redirect.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  14:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Played at least 100 games in fully professional minor leagues such as the American Hockey League, the International Hockey League, the ECHL, the Mestis, the HockeyAllsvenskan or other such league; (115 GM - Minor Hockey League)  JukoFF (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The MHL is a junior hockey league, not a professional league. Patken4 (talk) 23:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're wrong, it's professional league. Here is information from the official website of the League: "It was founded by 20 professional clubs in the Continental Hockey League (KHL), KHL and holding Ice Hockey Federation of Russia." JukoFF (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the professional clubs in the KHL created the league for their junior teams. The league itself is a junior league not professional. -DJSasso (talk) 11:38, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep NHOCKEY states that if a player played one or more games he is automatically notable. Hence, a player could play all of 5 seconds of a game, and thereby become notable, yet a player whose debut in the major league never eventuated due to a disaster isn't? If anyone, that is only going to make them more notable than a player who has played all of 5 seconds. --Russavia Let's dialogue 12:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to find news articles about this player prior to the crash then. Otherwise its a pure case of WP:BLP1E. -DJSasso (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * At the moment, it is a little difficult to find news coverage, merely due to his name being mixed in with crash members. However, I say why abide by some guideline for notability in which, as I mentioned above, someone who plays five minutes of a single game is notable, yet someone who plays over 100 games for Loko, and has represented his country in U-20 comp, and who was only a few hours away from playing his five minutes, is deemed unnotable because he died in a highly notable crash. I say we ignored those silly guidelines and look at the bigger picture here. He is likely to get coverage at some stage anyway. --Russavia Let's dialogue 15:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You do realize the sub-guidelines just say when there is likely to be GNG sources not when someone is actually notable or not. I am more than willing to say he is notable if we can find multiple reliable sources with significant coverage of him as is required of wp:n. As for he is likely to get coverage at some stage anyway...that falls into both WP:CRYSTAL and WP:ONEEVENT since any coverage he receives is likely to be because of the crash. -DJSasso (talk) 16:13, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply: To be brutally honest, the "bigger picture" here is that the subject is dead. He is not, in fact, ever going to play senior hockey.  He is not, in fact, ever going to gain more acclaim, or do the things that garner notability.  Snurnitsyn isn't non-notable because "he died in a highly notable crash."  He's non-notable because he's never done anything that Wikipedia recognizes as noteworthy.  Far from being "silly," Wikipedia's policies and guidelines set the standards for inclusion in this encyclopedia.  Snurnitsyn did not, at the time of his death, meet them, and his tragic death does not alter that fact.  Ravenswing  17:54, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * KeepSnurnitsyn seems to get press coverage in Russia, and this article is notable enough for the German, Swedish, and Russian Wikipedias, it should be notable for English Wikipedia as well. -- Hockeyben ✉ 14:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - Notable as per nation-wide Russian news source that provided coverage on Snurnitsyn way before the crash: Aug 8, 2011 news by kp.ru --Fayerman (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Please demonstrate that he passes WP:GNG. Can you provide links to the media sources which have covered Snurnitsyn? Dolovis (talk) 15:46, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You might have missed the source in my prior post, but here's more: Jan 16, 2011, Jan 17, 2011, April 8, 2011, April 16, 2011, etc. Thanks. --Fayerman (talk) 16:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to be pendantic but do you have any not from kp.ru? Since we require them from multiple source, this is just one. You are clearly better with Russian than me or I would look. -DJSasso (talk) 16:28, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Aug 8, 2011, Aug 24, 2011, Sept 3, 2011, etc. --Fayerman (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Komsomolskaya Pravda, as provided by Fayerman, is a media source. --Russavia Let's dialogue 15:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: The Sept 3, 2011 is a game summary. The Aug 24, 2011 reference is a roster list. The Aug 8, 2011 reference is a two sentence paragraph which mentions the subject as such:  "Among the 28 players is forward MHK "Lokomotiv" Pavel Snurnitsyn, a 19-year-old forward with the team in Finland for training camp." Period.  All the rest of Fayerman's links are game summaries.  All these links are debarred under WP:ROUTINE as being routine sports coverage, and none of them meet the GNG's standards of discussing the subect in "significant detail."  Wikipedia routinely rejects such links as supportive of notability.  I strongly recommend that people take any further links that Fayerman proffers through Google Translate - which works just fine on them - before assuming that they meet Wikipedia standards.  Ravenswing  18:05, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: I am sure the other participants of this discussion can examine the referenced news articles without relying on Ravenswing's hearsay statements. Note that Snurnitsyn's photos are prominently featured in some of those before-the-crash articles -- that adds to the notability factor. Thanks. --Fayerman (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply: In point of fact, it does not; photos published in a newspaper are not referenced in any notability criteria. That being said, I am pleased as punch to have other experienced editors review your links, where they will come to the same conclusions.  And that being said, I rather believe my seven years on the hockey Wikiproject, my 33,000 edits, and my experience in several hundred AfDs speak for themselves as far as "hearsay" goes.  (Come to that, you were expecting the non-Russian speaking editors to take your word that the articles you claimed discussed the subject actually did, hadn't you?)  Ravenswing  19:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No need to get worked up Ravenswing. I too thought the references were a bit on the weak side but I am sure with this many borderline ones found easily that there are probably others. I used google translate myself to look at the references I am sure others would as well. -DJSasso (talk) 19:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep or Redirect - Even if not notable on his own, there is a suitable - indeed ideal - redirect target, so the most that should be done is redirect. Given the coverage of the plane crash, it would not take much non-crash related coverage to meet GNG.  I am not convinced that Fayerman's links quite get there, but they at least inch him closer, and I am not sure how to search for Russian sources myself.  I suppose I am leaning keep, giving the non-crash sources the benefit of the doubt, but I can understand a redirect. Rlendog (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep as per there appearing to be enough notable coverage of this person to justify having an article of him here. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 00:09, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.