Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Payoneer (4th nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Payoneer
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails GNG, references fail WP:CORPDEPTH and/or WP:ORGIND and rely almost exclusively on company announcements of new services or expansions or funding announcement. None of the references meet the criteria for establishing notability, none are "intellectually independent". -- HighKing ++ 14:23, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions.  M assiveYR   ♠  14:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Internet-related deletion discussions.  M assiveYR   ♠  14:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  M assiveYR   ♠  14:55, 26 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. There was clear consensus in the second AfD less than a year ago that the subject satisfies both CORPDEPTH and GNG. --Michig (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment, not trying to waste anybody's time but the previous AfD results appear to have accepted mentions-in -passing (details of which don't even make the article), articles relying on company materials and quotations I've looked at the references included in the article and none meet the criteria for establishing notability. In general, some are unattributed, most are advertorials, based on companyannouncements, partner announcements or articles that rely on company material or quotations, inclusions in lists, funding annoucements, etc. Can you list two references that you believe meets the requirement for notability (an article that doesn't rely on company material and/or quotations for material facts on the company)? Thank you.  -- HighKing ++ 17:13, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum to deny the existance of for-profit presences.  According to inc42.com on 30 June 2016 "Payoneer currently has 3 Mn users across 200+ countries and provides transactions in 150+ currencies. It has a global team of 700 people...Till date, it has  raised $54 Mn from 14 investors".  Unscintillating (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "Research firm Pitchbook Inc. estimates Payoneer is valued at about $880 million after the most recent funding." The article further notes: "Payoneer’s technology moves money for businesses in one country working with those in other countries and handles the regulatory and currency issues that come with international transactions. While many payments startups rely on the existing credit card infrastructure, Payoneer has built its own connectors directly into banks, allowing recipients to get money deposited in their accounts and avoiding the transaction fees that come with plastic. Payoneer’s technology allows small- and medium-sized companies to pay and manage invoices over the internet rather than using checks and paper. Amazon.com Inc., Google, Airbnb Inc. and Getty Images use Payoneer to pay en mass the businesses, proprietors and freelancers using their platforms. About half of Payoneer’s revenue comes from bulk payout. When a consumer buys products on Amazon’s marketplace from independent merchants or retailers, the e-commerce giant receives the payment. Using Payoneer’s software, Amazon can then at once send the sellers the money they’re due in their local currency. In any given month, Amazon pays merchants from more than 100 countries through Payoneer, Galit said. This is an important part of Amazon’s e-commerce business, with marketplace sales making up about half of all orders."  The article notes: "Payoneer has raised $180m from venture capital investors, making the Israeli-turned-US cross-border payments provider the subject of one of the biggest funding rounds by a financial technology company this year. The company was founded in 2005 by Yuval Tal, a former Israeli special forces officer, who is its president. It has its headquarters in New York, a large research centre in Tel Aviv and has clients in more than 200 countries, including many of the biggest internet marketplaces such as Amazon, Airbnb, Google, Getty Images and UpWork. Technology Crossover Ventures, the California-based investor, is leading the latest fundraising round for the company, taking the total it has raised to about $280m. TCV is buying newly issued shares alongside Susquehanna Growth Equity, the Pennsylvania-based investor, and offering to buy out existing shareholders." The article provides detailed information about the company, including negative information: "Payoneer was linked by Dubai police to the incident in which Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was killed in 2010 in that the company was said to have provided pre-paid credit cards to some of the team that carried out the murder, which was widely believed to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli overseas intelligence service. Dubai Police did not release further details."  The article notes: "As the Web makes it easier for U.S. companies to hire workers from Bangkok to Berlin, figuring out how to pay them is an increasingly pressing issue. Payoneer, an Israeli start-up now based in New York, aims to fill this niche in the international money-transfer market. Payoneer enables businesses to pay freelancers, contract workers or salaried employees with a prepaid MasterCard card that payees can use to withdraw cash from an A.T.M. and as a debit card in stores and online. Greylock Partners, Crossbar Capital and Carmel Ventures have invested $14 million in Payoneer. ... So far, Payoneer has helped 200 companies sending money to 120,000 cardholders, 85 percent of whom are outside the United States. Many of the companies that use Payoneer offer payees several options, like PayPal or wire transfer, and those who live abroad often choose Payoneer."  The article notes: "'I established the company in New York in 2005,' says Yuval Tal, Payoneer's founder, who served until 2011 as its CEO and now is its president and director of business development. 'We began by serving American kids who come to Israel on programs like Taglit-Brithright, Hillel or with the Jewish Agency. We provided them with debit cards they could use to pay for things in Israel. ' Payoneer's client base has long since expanded far beyond this core group. Today its technology is mainly for people with a long list of payment recipients, or what is known in Internet parlance as affiliate networks. ... Payoneer also has a product for very-small size service providers and a service that allows customers to open a virtual American bank account. This means that a small client in China can use Payoneer to offer their services on Amazon or another American website and receive payments to cover expenses, all in dollars. ... Payoneer is a mature startup. Some 180 of the company's 250 employees are located in Israel, with the rest working in the United States and Gibraltar. The company raised $22 million in capital in two rounds, the second in 2008. Payoneer hasn't needed external funding since. Tal claims the company's been profitable since 2010."</li> <li> The article notes: "Israeli payments platform developer Payoneer is buying U.S. startup Armor Payments, it announced on Tuesday. Armor develops a system for guaranteeing payment security in business-to-business transactions. Payoneer declined to say how much it will pay for Armor, whose operations and seven employees are to be folded into Payoneer. Payoneer develops a platform enabling customers and businesses to make payments from different countries and in different currencies. It stated that the acquisition will reduce the suspicion and uncertainty when its customers make purchases from unfamiliar businesses."</li> <li></li> <li></li> <li> The article notes: "Payoneer, a startup whose technology enables companies to pay their suppliers anywhere in the world, said on Wednesday it had raised $25 million in an investment round led by the U.S. private equity firm Susquehanna Growth Equity. Existing investors Carmel Ventures, Greylock IL and Vintage Venture Partners joined the round, the company said. Amir Goldman, managing director of Susquehanna Growth Equity, will join Payoneer’s board. ... Payoneer provides a payment platform that connects thousands of companies with millions of professionals and small business owners in some 200 countries. Already profitable, the company said it would use the new capital to expand into new markets and increase sales and marketing as well as to pursue acquisitions. The company was founded in New York, where it is headquartered, in 2005 by Yuval Tal, who served until 2011 as CEO and is now its president and director of business development."</li> <li> The article notes: "Employees at the Payoneer are still trying to understand what hit them: the Israeli startup company has faced a wave of unwanted publicity after Dubai police claimed that suspects in the assassination of Hamas commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh used its credit card technology. Payoneer provides prepaid credit cards, which means holders can fill them with money and use them, without the card being tied to a standard bank account. Thirteen of the 27 suspects used prepaid MasterCards issued by MetaBank, a regional American bank, in order to purchase plane tickets and book hotel rooms, said the Dubai police. The police then tied MetaBank to Payoneer. It is still not clear how bad the publicity is. One source close to Payoneer said: 'All such publicity hurts,' but added that customers were unlikely to be deterred from buying the company's products."</li> <li> The article notes: "Payoneer, a US fintech company that helps businesses send and receive money across borders online, has raised $180 million (£141 million) in a Series E funding round. The cash comes from Technology Crossover Ventures (TCV), a Silicon Valley-headquartered VC fund that focuses on growth funding for established tech businesses. TCV has backed giants such as Facebook, Netflix, and Spotify. The funding round is double Payoneer's funding to date and takes its total raised to $270 million (£211 million). CEO Scott Galit wouldn't comment on the company's valuation but it's likely in the billions given the amount of equity doled out. Founded in 2005, Payoneer has two main parts to its business: helping small and medium-sized businesses make overseas payments online; and helping global tech giants like Amazon, Airbnb, and Google, to pay suppliers around the world."</li> <li> The article notes: "Israeli online payments solution company Payoneer Inc. has been selected by online retail giant Amazon Inc. to expand cross-border payment options to sellers from 24 countries who sell on marketplaces in the US, Spain, France, Italy, Germany and the UK. As a featured payment solution for select countries within Amazon Seller Central, Payoneer will provide a simple and convenient way for sellers from top markets including China, Japan and South Korea to receive their Amazon disbursements. In cooperation with Payoneer, Amazon now allows sellers to sign up for Payoneer directly from Amazon Seller Central. Upon Payoneer registration, sellers receive online accounts that can collect Amazon disbursements, and that provide access to these disbursements through local bank account withdrawal or through the use of a Payoneer MasterCard. This alliance marks the first time that Amazon has expanded Seller Central cross-border payment capabilities through alliance with an external payment solution. Payoneer was founded in 2005 by entrepreneur and investor Yuval Tal and has raised $90 million to date including $50 million in August. With 500 employees worldwide, the company is today headquartered in New York with its R&D center in Tel Aviv. Two years ago there were rumors that the company was planning an IPO at a company value of $700 million but in the end it chose a financing round of $25 million instead. Payoneer's investors include 83North, Carmel Ventures, Greylock, Vintage, Ping An and private investors such as Yuval Tal himself, Zohar Gilon, and others. Payoneer has been in the past chosen as one of 'Globes' most promising Israeli startups."</li> <li> The article notes: "Israeli digital payments company Payoneer has raised $180 million in growth equity financing from TCV (Technology CrossOver Ventures) with the participation of former investor Susquehanna Growth Equity. The financing includes $90 million for expanding the company while shareholders sold a stake worth a further $90 million. This is the largest-ever investment in an Israeli fintech company and the proceeds from the financing will be used to accelerate global growth and to enhance an already strong and debt-free balance sheet. Payoneer transforms the way businesses send and receive cross-border payments. The company was founded in 2005 in Israel by president Yuval Tal and former CTO Ben Yaniv Chechik and has raised $235 million to date including the latest financing round. Payoneer CEO Scott Galit said, “TCV shares our belief that we can make a difference by empowering entrepreneurs throughout the world by offering them tools and solutions to participate, compete and succeed in the global economy. TCV’s connections with fast growing e-commerce marketplaces, global brand-building expertise and its long-term investment philosophy are the perfect fit for Payoneer and will help us propel our growth in the years to come.” Payoneer is headquartered in New York and has its development office in Tel Aviv, which houses 560 of the company's 760 employees worldwide."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Payoneer to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC) </li></ul>


 * Pinging Articles for deletion/Payoneer (3rd nomination) participants and closer:, , and . Cunard (talk) 01:08, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * canvassing is not acceptable behaviour. At the very least, if you want to notify editors of a discussion, make the effort to not select only those that share your opinion. Pinging as the nominator.  -- HighKing ++ 11:03, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep as per Cunard as well as per sources in this, the previous, the previous and the previous AFD, Subject meets GNG and that's been proven 3 times in the space of 6 years, Consensus was keep in the last 3 AFDs and consensus will be to keep here so might I suggest knocking off the renominating ?.... – Davey 2010 Talk 02:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment There's a lot of sources. None meet the criteria for establishing notability. Repeating that this article meets the criteria because of the outcomes of previous AfD's is not a good argument unless it can be backed up with arguments in relation to policy/guidelines and more importantly, sources that actually meet the criteria for establishing notability - namely intellectually independent references that do not rely on company-produced materials or quotations. The problem with 's references (every single time - and that's leaving aside the length of the post) is that while the *sources* might meet the criteria for reliable sources (yay!) the references themselves invariably fail to meet the criteria of WP:CORPDEPTH and/or WP:ORGIND. For example:
 * The Financial Times article fails WP:CORPDEPTH "quotations from an organization's personnel as story sources" and fails WP:ORGIND "press releases, press kits, or similar works" as it is largely based on this press release and interviews with company and/or investor sources. The quotations are shared in a number of different publications such as Techcrunch and israel21c. The WSJ article listed later fails for the same reasons.
 * This NYTIMES article is a blog post which is usually not a reliable source. Leaving that aside, it fails WP:CORPDEPTH since it is largely based on quotations from an organization's personnel as a story source. It is not "intellectually independent" since is describes Paypal as a "Competitor" and is clearly written in collaboration with company sources therefore failing WP:ORGIND also.
 * The Haaretz article fails WP:CORPDEPTH for the same reasons as above - article is completely based on quotations from company sources. Not independent.
 * The next Haaretz article fails WP:ORGIND since it based on a company announcement, just like all these other articles based on the same announcement. Note they're all written within a couple of days of 15th March 2016 (date of the annoucement) too. Not one of the articles actually writes anything intellectually independent and all rabbit the company announcement with perhaps an extra soundbite or background snippet.
 * This Haaretz article (and there are also others reporting on the same event) related to an assassination in Dubai where the police suspected that the assassins used Payoneer cards to pay for flights and hotels. If this is truly why the company is notable, this should be the main part of the article on the topic. Since it is not even mentioned, it is clear that this has been disregarded for the purposes of notability.
 * The WSJ article fails WP:ORGIND as it is not intellectually independent. The company's PR firm takes credit and lists the article on the "Client Coverage" section of their website. The Haaretz version of the story is available without a subscription and you can see that the article is based on what the company said and is peppered with quotes from company sources and peppered with company-provided background facts.
 * This BusinessInsider article fails WP:CORPDEPTH for the usual reason as mentioned above and fails WP:ORGIND for the same reasons also as above. Quoting this as a reference for the purposes of establishing notability is a great example of an editor that clearly does not understand the difference between a "reliable source" (I'm pretty sure the website meets that criteria) and a "reference that meets the criteria for establishing notability" (which it very clearly does not).
 * This Globes.co.il article is based on this PR announcement. Even uses the same quotations from the CEO. Fails WP:ORGIND.
 * This Globes.co.il article talks about the funding raised the same as the other articles listed at the start of this post. Fails for the same reasons. All based on quotations/interviews with company sources. This article takes it one step further and the later parts are direct quotations from an interview with Question/Answer format.
 * At a risk of repeating myself, I've looked at the sources. None meet the criteria for establishing notability. If this company is truly notable, there should be at least two sources that *don't* have a quotation from the CEO or based on a Press Release. -- HighKing ++ 10:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep as per Cunard and Davey2010. Important payment company; despite the quoting of related persons and press releases, the coverage is broad and independent. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:40, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment to closing admin Please note that despite the number of sources listed here by Cunard and within the article, none of the editors have provided any rebuttal to my argument that none of the sources meet the criteria for establishing notability. Despite Cunard's statements and others by editors here, the criteria for notability is not simply two references from reliable sources where the sources are independent of the company. The interpretation that "Independence of sources" means a 'source that is independent of the company' is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is meant by "independent of the article subject". At least two references that are intellectually independent from the topic and are not based on Press Releases or interviews are required. Despite the high number of references linked here and in the article, those references all fail the criteria for establishing notability and only points to an efficient PR department within the company. Those references are not independent of the company and fail PRIMARY, CORPDEPTH and/or ORGIND. -- HighKing ++ 11:27, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep I find Cunard's sources adequate. Antrocent (&#9835;&#9836;) 19:30, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * , I'll ask you the same question I asked everyone else - kindly list two or three references that you believe meets the criteria for establishing notability. -- HighKing ++ 21:42, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.