Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was no consensus – Gurch 16:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Pedophilia and child sexual abuse in fiction
Original research. The discussion on the article's talk page gives a pretty good summary of why grouping together all of the literary works mentioned in this article is inherently POV: many of them do not, in fact, depict pedophilia, but rather, abuse by people who may or may not be pedophiles. In addition, some of the works depict consensual adult/child sex, which is neither pedophilia nor abuse. I think that "pedophile" is rather like "terrorist": using it is almost always inherently POV. Finally, the article discusses many works by non-notable authors (at least judged by whether the author has a Wikipedia article) -- it's okay to mention such works, of course, but in this case, the majority of the article is devoted to them. Delete Catamorphism 16:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Move to Pedophilia and adult-child sex in fiction, as it was before, delete original research, keep list, problem solved. AFD is not a vehicle for clean-up. JayW 17:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Even the list itself is OR and difficult to verify. I favor getting rid of the entire article. I don't think that moving the article and eliminating everything but the list solves the problem. Catamorphism 17:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I oppose the move to "Pedophilia and adult-child sex in fiction". It only had that title for a few hours, previously. The title was discussed on the talk page. Now the article has been moved with no discussion. "Adult-child sex" is a term used primarily within the pro-pedophile community and its use is POV. -Will Beback 04:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: This illustrates the problem. "Adult-child sex" is considered POV by some (and is inaccurate since many of the works are about teenagers.) "Pedophilia" is considered POV by some, including me, when applied to literary works where the author didn't necessarily intend to portray a character as being "pedophilic". There doesn't seem to be a good possible title, which certainly throws question on whether the article can be NPOV. Catamorphism 04:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Will, while we're often in agreement, I think you're wrong in this particular case. I was convinced by 24's argument that if an an adult-child relationship was described in fiction as non-abusive, it should not be listed under "child sexual abuse"... it's fiction, a fantasy. You wouldn't list Pippi Longstocking etc. under "Child Neglect in Fiction" even though she's left to fend for herself, and so forth. Herostratus 04:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's certainly a matter which is worth dicussing. In my view, some of the novels, like Mystic River, are about sexual abuse, not sex. More broadly, "child sexual abuse" is a synonym of child molestation. If we don't want the title to include those terms we should remove those books from the list. Pedophilia is simply the wish to have the sex, not the performance of the act. Then it is child sexual abuse, child molestation, or statutory rape, in most circumstances. -Will Beback 05:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I see what you're saying... technically, instances of raping a num could be included in an article List of instances of nuns having sex, sice a rape is sex and there was a nun involved... but we wouldn't do that... similarly, you're saying (I think) that putting instances of child molestation/sex abuse in an article titled "Adult-child sex..." is kind of bizarre. OK, I agree with that. Hmmmm. But removing just the abuse cases leaves a list of just fantasy fiction where the adult and child fall in love and live happily ever after or whatever... hmmm I dunno if that's good either, since to the extent that it claims to be complete list it would kinda sorta imply that all "Adult-child sex in fiction" is benign... I dunno the answer to that, be it can be figured out. Just flat deleting the whold schmear is not the answer IMO. Herostratus 20:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. While desperately few people would describe statutory rape as not being abuse or pedophilia - the bloody definition of the term is having sexual feelings for children - I agree that it fails WP:NOR. RGTraynor 17:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: No, that's not the definition of the term. The definition given in Pedophilia is "the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to pre-pubescent children." Many of the literary works in the referenced article either involve sex between pubescent or post-pubescent adolescents and adults, or involve perpetrators who aren't primarily attracted to children, or both. Catamorphism 17:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: No, that's not the definition of the term. See the WikiProject Pedophilia Article Watch, also that project's Terminology page and its discussion page, and indeed the talk page at article Pedophilia. The Amer. Psych. Assoc. definition you cite is not  the meaning as used by most people, and our definitions are generally descriptive not proscriptive. I wish that Wikipedia would define the term "pedophilia" more narrowly than does the Daily Mail, (although the Amer. Psysch. Assoc. definition is a bit too narrow IMO), but I don't think the community agrees with us. Herostratus 05:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. Clearly OR and sloppy terminology. It's common in the popular press to treat pedophilia and ephebophilia as the same thing, but they're not. Fan1967 17:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. First, as regards WP:NOR, I think the nominator has a point, but I think it is permissible in such cases to rely on the listed works themselves, which after all are reliable sources, and it should be relatively uncontroversial and easy to determine whether a particular work "deals with" a particular topic or not. Second , the most doubtful thing about this article for me is whether any thematic list of fictional works is at all encyclopedic; but a focus on notable works and narrower criteria should do it here. Third , the nominator's beef with this article appears to be mainly that it does not reflect his own POV, as reflected in assertions such as "consensual adult/child sex, which is neither pedophilia nor abuse", which I for one and the law codes of most countries would strongly contest, as children are for various reasons not able to freely consent to sex with adults, which makes all such sex abuse — but these at any rate are content issues for which AfD is not a forum. They can be addressed by a renaming of the article and other editorial work. Sandstein 19:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment A relationship between an adult and a 14-year-old is certainly abuse. It is not pedophilia. Fan1967 19:11, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Clearly a child can "freely" consent to sexual activity; the question is whether they can give informed consent. A blanket legal conclusion would form a ridiculous basis for abuse laws, since it would naturally suggest that sexual experimentation between young peers should be on par with adult-child sex in terms of punishment. CSA should instead be criminalized because of the nearly innate power imbalance of adult/child relationships. Most research has concluded that adult-child sex is (generally) much more harmful than youthful exploration: nothing is pointing at the "informed consent" myth. The problem, instead, appears to be imbalances (or possibly even stigma). JayW 19:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article consists not only of a list of works, but of detailed interpretations of those works, and I think it's fairly obvious that the interpretations are OR. As for the works themselves? I think for many of them, it's a matter of opinion whether the works in fact depict "pedophilia", "abuse", or neither. Thus this article cannot be NPOV. Finally, your comments about my POV (and please check my user page and use the pronouns I prefer to refer to me) illustrate why this article cannot be written in an NPOV fashion: there is disagreement about whether sex between someone over 18 and sex between someone under 18 is always abusive, and the existence of this article reflects the POV that it is always abusive. Given the existence of a debate, an article like this encourages POV-pushing. Catamorphism 20:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Yes, I did mean informed consent. Catamorphism, I don't see any interpretations in the article, much less detailed ones. Whether what they depict should be called abuse, pedophilia or something else is an editorial matter not suited for AfD. As to your preferred pronoun "they" — sorry, I didn't notice that and certainly have no intention to offend you. However, while you may certainly refer to youself in whatever way you want, you should not expect others to change their use of standard language for your sake — I call men he as a matter of the English language. Sandstein 05:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: Look at the article history; that's where the detailed interpretations are. They were removed after I posted this AFD. Also, I'm not a man, which is why I prefer "they" as a pronoun. Catamorphism 11:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as per Catamorphism. Also, since people are paranoid about pedophilia, they may see this as a pedophile reading list. If it was an important enough topic, I would say keep it anyway, but I don't think this one is worth it. -- Kjkolb 21:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think the lower half list is useful. The authors may only be unnotable because of the bias of editors and readers. Call the title "adult-child sexual activity in fiction" which is wider. Skinnyweed 22:08, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Needs a tidy up, certainly a controversial issue - but encylopedic - agree with Skinnyweed on title - pedophilla is a controversial term but 'adult-child sex' covers both pedophillic and (arguably) non-pedophilic child-adult sex (I note concerns about and debate about informed consent - unlikely a child can ever give - power issues etc). Regardless of this, article is worthy and basically well written.  --manchesterstudent 22:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think there's still a problem with the name, as normally one doesn't refer to a teenager as a child, and that seems the primary age group in most of the listed works. Fan1967 00:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True enough. But the Oxford English Dictionary defines "child" as someone short of full physical development (which includes most people through about age 20 or so). It's a contentious issue, the meaning of "child", and has been discussed at WP:PAW and elsewhere, with no resolution likely. Herostratus 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. And definitely Move to "Pedophilia and adult-child sex in fiction". And tag for Cleanup. Or else move to ""Pedophilia and adult-child sex in literature". Speaking as one unlikely to be tagged as a pedophilia apologist, I think that's it's valid and useful list. I have spoken against links and other material that may be taken as promoting pedophila, but this article doesn't much worry me. It's validly encyclopedic. Also, as a general rule, you can pretty much assume that work by User:Tony Sandel in this area is probably scholarly and correct. Herostratus 06:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Firstly, categorising under-18 sex as statutory rape/abuse is inherently NPOV.  The Age of consent is not universally fixed at 18, either geographically or historically. Would Romeo and Juliet count?  As far as I know, few people consider that play to be about child sexual abuse.  --  GWO
 * Keep. Hi everyone. I've read all the keep/delete comments and thought I'd better comment too, as I contributed most of the list and article.  I don't think it's really OR as there are many similar respected lists on this topic on the Internet like at amazon.com  for books or imdb.com  for movies.  Likewise, I have tried to keep POV neutral.  We will never get agreement on what is/isn't pedophilia or who is/isn't a child so I considered it valid to include references to books/films that a significant number of people in the UK or USA would consider as pedophilia and/or child sexual abuse. I recognise that the text (as opposed to the lists) causes more problems, but it does at least define the context of the pedophilia/sexual abuse.  And I thought it was important to include works where there is no 'proof' of either pedophilia or abuse!  The books/films Death in Venice and The Man Without a Face are well known examples and the list would lose credibility if they were left out.

One solution would be to cut up the first sections and put one line/two line descriptions under each work, but I feel it would be less useful as an encyclopedia reference. Surely the point of an authoritative wikipedia article is to answer firstly a search then to provide many links to whatever aspect of the topic the searcher is looking for.

Finally, we should recognise the views of experts. Carolyn Lehamn has just sent me a mail saying "It's a good list you have. I'm glad you're including both fiction and non-fiction as they inform each other.  It makes for a much richer resource." See her OR on the topic at"Carolyn Lehman: Strong At The Heart" Tony Sandel
 * Comment. I've just noticed that the fist few sections have already been removed by Catamorphism.  Is this not vandalism to remove such a large section without having the courtesy to wait for the deletion debate.  How can other  users form a view if the deletion has already taken place?  Can someone restore it while the debate continues please? Tony Sandel
 * Comment: Actually, JayW was the first to remove this content, and someone else restored it because there was no explanation; I restored that deletion, citing the discussion here. Catamorphism 11:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I dont' see the discussion about the removed material. JayW deleted it with the comment "(rm for now)". It seems inappropriate to remove text for the duration of an AFD with the intent of restoring it later, which is what I took that to mean. -Will Beback 21:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Some comments here are bizarre. "pedophile" is rather like "terrorist": using it is almost always inherently POV". Pedophile is a very normal word that everyone understands - some arguement about the age of the kids I know. Also "non-notable authors (at least judged by whether the author has a Wikipedia article)" - more than half the books on the first list have wiki articles and who's to say whether an author is notable or non-notable???  Article seems NPOV to me, though some could be OR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ganymedes (talk • contribs)
 * Comment The problem I see is that this article ignores the fact that there is a real, substantive difference between genuine pedophilia and inappropriate relationships between adults and teenagers. I don't see this distinction being made at all, or even acknowledged. Fan1967 15:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep this war on anything pedophilia-related is ridiculous.  Grue   14:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. --Jelligraze 18:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per User:Alexmanchester. —   pd_THOR  undefined | 21:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've never cared for these "listy" Wikipedia pages.  Most of the entries seem to be non-notable.  I don't see the encyclopedic value of such a list.  -Jmh123 14:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Most articles on literature on Wikipedia have lists and do not just mention well known works. The entries are non-notable?  To who?  Just because you haven't heard of an author, does not make him or her non-notable.  An encyclopedia should try to be encyclopedic.Note: this user already voted.

I agree with this comment - that there is "a real, substantive difference between genuine pedophilia and inappropriate relationships between adults and teenagers". The article is headed pedophilia AND child sexual abuse, and I have excluded the dozens of works that deal with adults and teenagers well past the age of puberty. There are, however, a number of borderline cases and I have included them where, having read the book myself, the relationship could be interpreted as being either pedophile behaviour and/or child sexual abuse. It's best that readers make their own judgement. Tony Sandel

If you want to be a universal encyclopedia you have to include everything. The bad with the good. Otherwise it is a pointless exercise in ego. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.85.117 (talk • contribs)


 * Delete Wikipedia is not a reading list. Crikey, aren't there other websites for these lists? GassyGuy 22:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment. If this is a POV issue, should it not be discussed on the talk page rather than listed here? As someone said above, afd isn't a cleanup tool so there is no reason to list this here. Skinnyweed 13:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.