Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Penn State–Temple football rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Randykitty (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Penn State–Temple football rivalry

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This series between two in-state schools has been played for a long time, however, I don't see any evidence that it is an established, legit "rivalry". The biggest piece of evidence to support this claim, in my view, is the fact that Temple has only beaten Penn State four times in 45 meetings. There is no name for this rivalry, no trophy exchanged and no true animosity between the schools. This would be comparable to a Memphis–Tennessee football rivalry page. (Memphis and Tennessee are in the same state and have played a number of times through the decades but only 1 Memphis victory). When Temple wins, it is like winning the lottery for Temple and being mauled by a polar bear and black bear in the same day for Penn State. A Penn State victory is essentially expected by both sides and outsiders when they do play and there is no significant outside attention given to the matchup between these two squads. This does not have the makings of a "rivalry". CalebHughes (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2018 July 31.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 21:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 21:39, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. Anything this lopsided doesn't qualify, or as Penn State football historian and author Lou Prato stated, "Temple…Never going to be a rivalry." That's good enough for me. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment This nomination is written entirely in the present tense. As noted in a similar AfD, Wikipedia doesn't exist to document things in the present moment, and the title doesn't imply currency. However, I see no indication in the article that a rivalry ever really existed.   Acroterion   (talk)   23:41, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

*WP:SNOW delete I did search, because there certainly could be a significant rivalry I happen never to have heard of. But Penn State v. Temple is totally WP:MILL. The only puzzle is why someone went to the trouble of creating such a an article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:33, 2 August 2018 (UTC) strike comment, per new sources brought.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete, as a Google search brings up the following sources on the first page: "It’s hard to call Temple-Penn State a rivalry because Penn State has dominated the all-time series..." (The Temple News) "Many point to Penn State as the Owls’ biggest enemy, but four wins in 45 meetings is not considered a rivalry." (underdogdynasty.com) "But for now, the Lions and Owls will continue to meet, and even though there’s no proclaimed rivalry" (Penn State Daily Collegian) "...it will mark the 40th meeting between the two in-state rivals. I use the term "rival" loosely, because frankly it's not much of a rivalry." (SB Nation) Doesn't seem like anyone considers it a rivalry, or, for that matter, ever has.  PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 01:24, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete- Playing another sports team does not automatically entail a “rivalry”. There are actually more sources here arguing there is not a rivalry.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:08, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and PCN02WPS. Cbl62 (talk) 05:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete just playing each other often does not make it a rivalry. Fails WP:GNG.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:40, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Changing to Keep after new sources and research have been provided, it seems to me that this rivalry now passes WP:GNG. Wow.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Comment - nominator fails to invoke WP:GNG and the above discussion mostly follows suit on a non-GNG basis.
 * Newspapers.com archives many regional newspapers. These papers do demonstrate "significant coverage" as required by GNG, including:


 * 1) 1940 (The Mercury) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/83704266/ "NITTANY LIONS AND TEMPLE RENEW RIVALRY"
 * 2) 1976 (The Progress) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/60881506/ "Penn State has beaten Temple 10 times in 14 meetings. There has been one tie. The rivalry' resumed last vear for the first time since 1953."
 * 3) 1977 (AP/The Evening Standard) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/27914862/ "How does Pat Carey, doctor sound to you? Carey right now is concentrating on getting ready to quarterback Temple against Penn State Saturday in the heated state football rivalry."
 * 4) 1980 (Philadelphia Daily News) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/185681638/ "Temple-Penn State is on the verge of becoming more of a football rivalry than anyone ever anticipated."
 * 5) 1986 (Tyrone Daily Herald) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/13488146/ "Penn State has won eleven straight games in its series with Temple, which dates from 1931. The Nittany Lions have also captured 18 of the last 19 games in the rivalry, a streak interrupted only by a 7-7 tie in 1950."
 * 6) 1991 (Indiana Gazette) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/14273537/ "Penn State beat Temple for the 17th straight time and boosted its- series lead to 25-3-1 in the intrastate' rivalry. Temple hasn't defeated Penn State since 1941."
 * 7) 2010 (AP/The Republic) - https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/149077746/ "If Penn State is Temple's measuring stick, the Owls have been off by miles. This Pennsylvania rivalry is decidedly tilted in the Nittany Lions' favor."
 * This is "significant coverage," includes five different decades, and includes AP sourcing. As we're approaching a week since nomination, I'd ask any closing admin to allow time for additional review of the above, rather than closing based on the prior comments. UW Dawgs (talk) 00:09, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - per UW Dawgs' sources, numerous reliable sources regard this as a rivalry, even if it is a lopsided one. That's good enough for me. Rlendog (talk) 00:12, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. No valid reason to keep / contest the nomination Redditaddict69 (talk) (cont)   17:14, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep in view of UW Dawgs' addition of 7 sources from 1940 to 2010 ( I hope they will make it to the article before the AFD discussion is over, as it will help the reviewers), likely to be more. In my view they justify GNG. --1l2l3k (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Mere trivial mention of a "rivalry", per WP:GNG, does not make it so. There is stronger evidence of a rivalry not existing between these schools than there is in support of a rivalry. There isn't enough to support WP:GNG. UTEP-UTSA football rivalry was deleted in spite of the fact that media sources proclaimed it a rivalry. There must be in-depth coverage beyond mere trivial mention, UW Dawgs. CalebHughes (talk) 17:44, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed, done. 5 cites from 5 decades including 2 from Associated Press. UW Dawgs (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm a sports fan but even I can't justify calling this a rivalry. The games get the expected local and Pennsylvania state coverage, as every game does, but the true test is whether this is covered in national papers (doesn't seem to be) and by what is reported besides the games themselves (nothing that I can see). A true rivalry exists even when the teams are not playing - that doesn't seem to be the case here, as pointed out above.  No trophy, no reporting on the subject when the games aren't being played, etc. TimTempleton (talk)  (cont)  21:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment/additional cites
 * 8. September 5, 1982 (New York Times) https://www.nytimes.com/1982/09/05/sports/penn-state-passing-routs-temple-31-14.html "expects the football team to soon close the gap with its cross-state rival."
 * 9. October 7, 1990 (AP via New York Times) https://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/07/sports/college-football-east-late-duke-score-frustrates-army.html "Leroy Thompson and Gary Brown each rushed for more than 100 yards for Penn State, which has won 16 games in a row over its intrastate rival since the two teams played a tie in 1950."
 * 10. September 22, 1996 (New York Times) https://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/22/sports/penn-state-comes-out-pounding-and-temple-crumbles-in-defeat.html "It was Penn State's 21st consecutive victory over its cross-state rival and it raised the Lions' season record to 4-0. Temple dropped to 1-3."
 * 11. September 15, 2011 (Philadelphia Tribune) "Temple, PSU match a new chapter in state rivalry" http://www.phillytrib.com/sports/basketball/temple-psu-match-a-new-chapter-in-state-rivalry/article_0a6f6f02-ae36-531b-b23e-f9e355f689df.html "The Nittany Lions would like to pick up a win against their in-state rival. Addazio expects Penn State to be well prepared for this contest."
 * 12. November 15, 2014 (Philadelphia Inquirer) http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/temple/20141115_To_beat_Penn_State__Temple_needs_to_jump-start_offense.html "For many of their classmates and fans, this week for the Temple football team has been about beating the cross-state rival."
 * 13. December 8, 2015 (Philadelphia Tribune) http://www.phillytrib.com/sports/temple-football-gets-bowl-game-invitation/article_09b413ee-fba7-5db5-82dd-7a2c3aa8775a.html "a 7-0 start was the program’s best ever, and a big opening day victory against Penn State, which was the first over the in-state rivals in 74 years."
 * 14. September 17, 2016 (Philadelphia Tribune) http://www.phillytrib.com/penn-state-avenges-loss-to-temple/article_9f637806-c989-5d75-b3dd-0b43f1372d36.html "Early in the second quarter in the matchup with in-state rival Temple, Beaver Stadium announcer Dean DeVore..." "A 1-3 mark against in-state rivals Pittsburgh and Temple would have been unacceptable for Penn State fans restless for in-state success."
 * 15. September 20, 2016 (Philadelphia Tribune) http://www.phillytrib.com/sports/in-loss-to-penn-state-temple-rb-jahad-thomas-reinvigorates/article_1a6bde59-d5ed-5b36-844b-97369a7ee8b2.html "Temple suffered a tough road loss to Penn State in an exciting matchup of the two in-state rivals."
 * There is clear national, local, and AP-syndicated coverage over decades from WP:RS which go well-beyond GNG. UW Dawgs (talk) 01:01, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &thinsp;&mdash; Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)&thinsp; 04:35, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - just because two sides have played each other does not make their playing each other notable enough a rivalry to have a place in Wikipedia. Vorbee (talk) 07:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Consensus seems to be delete. I hope this discussion is closed very soon and the page deleted in a swift manner also. CalebHughes (talk) 13:50, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Per new sources showing it passes GNG. Smartyllama (talk) 12:44, 17 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.