Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perpetual war memorial


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Can be userfied on request.  Sandstein  06:33, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Perpetual war memorial

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First sentence is a dictionary type definition, the rest is a mention of a non-notable memorial, fails WP:GNG Jezhotwells (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  -- Jezhotwells (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  -- Jezhotwells (talk) 01:27, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - Subject does not appear to pass WP:GNG. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 15:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete Unverified; pretty much nonsense. First it gives a definition for "perpetual war memorial", but none of the sources support the definition. Then it says without attribution that the Northwood Gratitude and Honor Memorial in Irvine is the first perpetual war memorial in the world - even though that memorial does not use the term. Google finds nothing to support the article. --MelanieN (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

MajorVariola (talk) 20:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC) Apologies for being a newbie to the WP maintenance culture.

Re: references, have added. This was meant as an informational page to those seeking definition of the phrase, with pointers to other supporing articles including Pertual War (aka Long War) and war memorials. These are, by the way, widely accepted and well defined terms. But, I've put refs there so the article is more self contained. Thanks for the feedback.

The facts of the Irvine installation are referenced in multiple newspapers etc. There are more refs under its article.

Re: deleting the tags at top, sorry, didn't know the rules or lingo.

Re: notability: the first of a new variant of a class is notable by virtue of introducing that variant to the world. The "first X with Y" is the schema. The first book made with movable type, the first color movie, that kind of thing.

Re: MelanieN: the Irvine war memorial page explicitly contains a quote from a founder, ref to city documents, and several newspaper stories that describe the installation exactly as this page does. As far as "dictionary" definition goes, the phrase "pertual war memorial" defines a distinct category separate from any combination of those words, so the phrase is meaningful, much like "civil war memorial" or "genocide memorial" or "armenian genocide memorial". In an encyclopedia, it should be ok to state a definition, followed by history, relations to other concepts, any other interesting links. No? Just my memories of the Britannica..


 * Sorry, but can you show me that quote? I just spent 10 minutes on the memorial's website and I can't find anything like that. It says it is "The nation's first memorial listing the names of all the fallen American service members in Afghanistan and Iraq". It talks about the city council making it a "permanent memorial" after having started out as a temporary or ad-hoc memorial. The website contains links to six newspaper articles; none of them contains the phrase "perpetual war memorial".
 * I have no quarrel with the article Northwood Gratitude and Honor Memorial, and I have nothing but admiration for the volunteers who have put this together and maintain it. My only problem is with this article, Perpetual war memorial, where I simply can't find any verification that the phrase exists, or that it means what the article says it means. --MelanieN (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Is this the quote you were referring to - where the principal organizer of the Northwood memorial said "I think it is the first time, maybe in the nation, what we will have is a memorial honoring those who have fallen as the conflict goes on, rather than waiting 20 or 30 years" ? There are three problems with using this as evidence. In the first place he is an interested party, not independent. In the second place he says "I think" and "maybe" so this is not definitive. Third and most important, he doesn't use the term "perpetual war memorial," so it is still unclear where that phrase came from or how this meaning got attached to it. Remember that this discussion is entirely about the Perpetual war memorial article; nobody is criticizing the Northwood memorial. --MelanieN (talk) 17:14, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete with all due respect to the people that this memorial honors, this article does not meet wikipedia guidelines for inclusion. Claims of "first memorial complete before the war ended" in the article (which have been removed) are not supported by references provided.  I'm also not finding anything to support this. RadioFan (talk) 00:47, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Forgive me, but I have reversed that removal. IMO while the article is at AfD we should discuss it the way it is. It's true, as you say, that the definition given is not supported by references. But there are also no references supporting the claim that "perpetual war memorial" refers to to the Northwood memorial - which is how the article read with its intro removed. Basically there are no references to support the title phrase, period. There's nothing salvageable here. If we remove everything unsupported, we will blank the article. --MelanieN (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I have added "citation needed" tags to the definition given for "perpetual war memorial," and to the claim that the Northwood memorial is the first in the world to fit that definition. Without verification that this phrase means what the article says it means, there can be no article. --MelanieN (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak delete without prejudice: while it seems that Northwood Gratitude and Honor Memorial is notable, this article is mostly about that one. I'm not sure there is merit in describing a type of memorial when only one such exists (I appended "without prejudice" to mean that if this proves to be more prevalent in the future, we could re-create; however, I don't think a comparison with the first color movie is a valid analogy in this case). In any case, the referencing isn't enough to qualify the GNG.  bahamut0013  words deeds 11:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Courage is contagious (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC) I have yet to read an explanation of how "Parish Church" and "First Parish Church of America" (bot WL entries) are any different from "P-War memorial", aside from age.
 * MajorVariola, I know you meant no harm, but please don't use different names when signing your notes here. It could make people think you are creating a WP:Sock puppet, where a person uses multiple names or accounts, to try to make it appear that more people are speaking. I know this was not your intention - you are still learning your way around here - but sock puppetry is very much frowned upon.
 * I am puzzled by your recent changes to the article. You added several examples of other monuments to the Iraq/Afghanistan war, some of which are older than the Newport memorial. Does that mean we should delete the claim that the Newport memorial was the first? Also, none of the added examples are referred to as a "perpetual war memorial", so we still have the primary problem, that the meaning of this phrase has not been confirmed. I'm wondering - were you trying to create an article about Iraq War memorials or Iraq/Afghanistan War memorials? If so, maybe the article could be changed into that, by changing its name and removing the unsourced definition of a "perpetual war memorial". --MelanieN (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Note to closing administrator: If the result is "delete" I suggest userfying it to MajorVariola, so that he does not lose the research he has done on the various Iraq War memorials around the country. --MelanieN (talk) 15:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.