Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Persephone (The Matrix) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is not to delete. Whether or not to merge, if anyone wants to press for that, can be discussed outside of AfD. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 05:23, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Persephone (The Matrix)
AfDs for this article: 
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No evidence this fictional character passes WP:NFICTION/GNG. Prior AfD seems to have been improperly speedy closed. In either case, BEFORE does not show any in-depth discussion of this relatively minor character in the franchise, just some in passing comments and plot summaries, this time mostly related to a few lists of 'sexy women in movies'. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  11:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 15:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge to List of minor characters in the Matrix series (and probably rename that to List of characters in the Matrix series, but that's a separate discussion). I agree the closure of the previous AFD was egregious. The article lacks multiple sources covering the character in depth, and I don't see any sign that any such sources would be available following a search. However, a merge seems like a reasonable WP:ATD here. Hugsyrup 12:29, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per sources found by . Hugsyrup 10:35, 17 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge as proposed above. BD2412  T 12:46, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. It appears this character is discussed a great deal in various scholarly works. This article by Catherine Constable, the full text of which can be found here, describes Persephone's desire for pure sensation as demonstrative of a kind of existential authenticity, and discusses the similarities and differences between the Matrix character and the Eurydice of Greek mythology. This chapter by Martina Lipp discusses how Persephone is in some ways a powerful character, but is limited in other ways due to her gender. This article by Dana Dragunoiu, of which I am still attempting to find the full text, addresses how Persephone discredits claims of utilitarianism made by other characters in the films (according to the portion visible in the Google Scholar search). This book presents the character as an example of a "contrary position to causality/determinism" in the Matrix, and how "although love registers as a positivity, it is never guaranteed, and always subject to change". These are just a few examples I found with some brief searching, in addition to the expected news stories you can find about her casting and performance in the films. I think these help establish she has received sufficient coverage in reliable sources, meets WP:GNG, and that this article has great potential for future expansion. — Hunter Kahn 13:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
 * First source seems solid, but the the books seem to discuss her only in passing. I also cannot find a way to access the JSTOR article. Given this, we are one good source short of 'multiple' good sources GNG requirement, so at this point I am not withdraiwng. But good job finding the first source, I missed this. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 22:07, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Well here's another source for your consideration. The book Like a Splinter in Your Mind: The Philosophy Behind the Matrix Trilogy seems to dedicate quite a bit of discussion to Persephone, but a preview isn't available on Google Books so I couldn't read through it at first. But I found some scans from Chapter 12 online, (you can use the Look Inside function on the book's Amazon page to confirm this is indeed the book's chapter) where you'll see pp. 159-164 discuss the character in depth, discussing her obsession with experiencing genuine emotions in otherwise disingenuous surroundings, her search for meaning at her stage of technological and psychological development, how her phenomenological approach to living fits into existentialist philosophy, and how she embodies a concept French existentialists and philosophers (apparently) call "the lived body". It's possible Persephone is discussed in other chapters of this book as well; Chapter 12 was the only one I was able to immediately dig up... — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 23:02, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep per Hunter Kahn's excellent job finding high-quality sources. Toughpigs (talk) 15:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect - The entire scope of the character can be handled by a single paragraph. TTN (talk) 16:59, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No offense intended, but you really think we could highlight the character's themes from the scholarly works I cited above and the usual elements of a fictional character (performance, appearances, reviews, etc.) in ONE paragraph, without making it an unwieldy long paragraph? — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 17:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, she's like a ten minute character in four and a half hours of footage, so the scope of depth provided should be very minimal. That's especially true when the films should be describing her plot involvement, while a character section in a list should give relevant contextual details unfitting for a plot summary. TTN (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, given that a subject's notability is based upon coverage in third party reliable sources and not running time or your subjective opinion of the character's importance, I obviously disagree with you. — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 19:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Articles on fictional topics are inherently splits from the parent work, so notability doesn't matter if there's no justification to split it out. All plot information can be disregarded when it comes to size. I don't particularly agree the notability threshold has been met either. TTN (talk) 19:51, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I disagree. — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 20:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep as Hunter Khan has found multiple reliable sources with significant coverage, also some of the references in the article regarding popular culture imply that this is a significant character, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Withdraw. Surprisingly enough, this relatively minor character got some serious scholarly attention, which meets my minimum criteria of in-depth discussion in at least two reliable sources. Kudos to HK for finding quality sources I missed. I am no longer prepared to endorse this deletion. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:33, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep as per discussion and sources above. Samboy (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.