Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pershing Middle School (Houston)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Appears to meet requirements to Keep as per vaild RS found - note: this should be considered a rarity, not new jurisprudence for middle schools (non-admin closure) ES  &#38;L  12:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Pershing Middle School (Houston)

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Non-notable middle school. Attempt to redirect to parent school district was reverted. Recommend WP:REDIRECT to List of Houston Independent School District schools per slight variation of school article guidelines WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG. The guidelines normally would recommend merging/redirecting to Houston Independent School District davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)  01:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC) Nominator no longer supports changing, holding open only because another editor wants to redirect, see below davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  04:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - I am going to claim GNG. In other words, there are multiple reliable sources written about this school. There was an entire article about Pershing moving to a new school building. Another article was written on the history of the school. In smaller publication there was an article on chimney swifts in a pipe at the school and how the school had to keep the pipe intact (unfortunately the article did not archive in the wayback machine but I can see if I can call the editors of the paper which absorbed the West U Examiner and see if there is a way I can obtain an article). In the Houston Press there was an article on a teacher's urban farming program. That's four independent sources. If that is insufficient I could check microfilm catalogs at the Houston Public Library. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you are here to discuss this. In general, "local" coverage carries a lot less weight than non-local coverage when it comes to people an organizations.  If "3 or 4 feature articles" from local sources were acceptable, any school that has been in existence for more than 30-40 years would easily qualify.  I tend to discount articles of "local interest" such as one about the school moving, unless it was in an out-of-town paper.  If the article on the history of the school was local, I would tend to discount it for the same reason.  The article about the chimney Swifts and the urban farming program might sway me, but I would look at them from the point of view of "is this local coverage, the kind any school anywhere would get from its local paper if they had a similar bird population or a teacher with a similar novel program?" davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Local coverage can and is a weighing factor. Two of the sources are more local publications but the other two are from the Houston Chronicle which is the "newspaper of record" of Greater Houston which is about 6 million people. There are entire countries with smaller populations than that. Enough local coverage, especially if it is from a newspaper of record, should be enough to prove notability. In regards to "any school that has been in existence for more than 30-40 years would easily qualify" - that's precisely the point, if one is willing to get article archives and do the work to show notability. I have been able to find extensive coverage on some surprising things and I prove notability that way. Now, WP:GNG discounts routine news coverage (such as regular football game statistics, announcements of starting the school year, etc., things that are expected). The natures of all four articles are not routine coverage. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarification by nominator I am not seeking to remove the page's history. Should the school meet WP:GNG or WP:ORG in the future, the existing page history would be a very good starting point.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  02:01, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirect I was the one who had redirected it back in June and I hold to that. Since middle schools do not have the historic "automatic" notability outcomes (see WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES) high schools do, the sourcing on a middle school would have to meet WP:ORG.  A requirement of WP:ORG is that the sourcing be both in detail and geographically diverse.  There is one notability type ref on this page from outside of Houston, but that just cited this school among many in a larger article about the trend toward schools of choice.  IMHO, that does not speak to notability.  All in all, there just isn't the information to say that this middle school has the notability required for an independent article.  It appears to be just a run of the mill middle school. All public schools will receive coverage in local papers; that is just a fact of life.  The school article guidelines were formally approved by the entire community and as such, their notability standard should be respected. Gtwfan52 (talk) 02:47, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: From my understanding GNG is something that is applied very broadly and can affect anything. If something is considered to be within GNG, then it is notable, even if it fails "subject-specific" guidelines. If this article doesn't pass WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES but it passes WP:GNG then it should be considered notable. Also, while schools receive coverage, often coverage is routine (unusable for notability purposes). The trick is to find non-routine news coverage. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Update: I found a memoir that talks about Pershing but it was published by AuthorHouse. That's a self-publishing outfit so I can't use it. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Update #2: Here you go. I found a book published by a reputable publisher which talks about the school:
 * Ouchi, William G. Making Schools Work: A Revolutionary Plan to Get Your Children the Education They Need. Simon and Schuster, June 24, 2008. ISBN 1439108102, 9781439108109. p. 149.
 * I have added information from this book, which uses Pershing as a case study in education. I hope this is sufficient for it to be declared notable in addition to the local coverage.
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 03:21, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * This is the significant coverage needed. davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  04:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Nominator changing to keep per the Ouchi book. When and if all participants here are willing to say "keep" this can be closed as "speedy keep/withdrawn," otherwise keep the disucssion open for the full time period.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  04:15, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - now meets WP:GNG. The Whispering Wind (talk) 04:31, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 17:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 17:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - The article is well written and sourced suitably. Its references indicate notability per WP:GNG. Michaelzeng7 (talk) 20:33, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete A mention as one of a number of examples in a book just means that it's being chosen as typical, not as  notable.  DGG ( talk ) 04:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The truth of this statement depends on the book and the usage. Two books about golf courses may exist. One may have the 20 golf courses that are the best examples of certain features, another may have 20 golf courses that are typical examples of certain features.  I haven't read this book well enough to know if the author chose selectively or randomly when picking this school for inclusion.  I trust you did.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)  04:45, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking through the book, the book title "Making Schools Work" and the chapter seems to deal with schools that the author believes have beneficial academic programs that increase student performance. For example on page 144 in the same chapter the author discusses Cornelius Elementary and he explains why he believes the school is successful. It does not seem like "luck of the draw" to me. In addition, Notability: states:
 * "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a passing mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.[1]"
 * Therefore if a series of books use a school as an example and write a lot of content about it, it means the school passes GNG because the content is "Significant coverage".
 * WhisperToMe (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.