Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Petteri Pennanen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 20:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Petteri Pennanen

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Was appropriately prodded as "Player has never played in a fully-pro league - Finland's Veikkausliiga is only semi-pro - and therefore fails WP:ATHLETE": prod deleted as "laughable" by an editor presumably unaware of the agreed notability criteria. Kevin McE (talk) 20:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: Deferring to the nom's expertise as to the level of play. If the subject indeed never played in a fully-professional league (or for a national team on a world stage - which is not asserted), then he fails WP:ATH. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 20:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment- does representing his country in an under-17 or under-19 game satisfy WP:ATHLETE? If so, he passes. . There are also a fair few Google hits for this guy in Finnish newspapers so he might pass WP:N with or without WP:ATHLETE- but I don't understand a word of Finnish so I can't say for sure.  Reyk  YO!  22:13, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: WP:Athlete is too narrow a criteria to be applied to Finnish Premier League of Football. Yes the league is labeled semi-pro, but it still is the top flight of the nation's biggest sport by the number of participants and it's winners qualify to ECL and 2nd to UEFA Cup qualifying rounds. We would need to delete every Veikkausliiga-player if this definition of notability would be enforced. IMO that would be counter-productive. As goes for this person, he is one of the best prospects in his age group, but nothing unique. Thus the decision has to be made depending on whether one thinks Veikkausliiga players or seasoned junior national team footballers in general are notable. His achievements since transfer to FC Twente haven't yet provided any other reasons for notability. I don't think that he would pass WP:N. --Ras (talk) 22:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment He's right, of course: every other Veikkausliiga player who has no experience in a fully pro competition, no full international appearance and no other claim to notability should be deleted. So should I add Henri Aalto, Iiro Aalto, Mika Ääritalo, Heikki Aho, Joni Aho, Tuomas Aho, Aleksei Kangaskolkka, Keith Armstrong, Jani Bäckman, Bertrand Okafor, Dan-Ola Eckerman, Kalle Eerola, Jonas Emet, Xhevdet Gela, Mats Gustafsson, Petri Haapimaa, Hannu Haarala, Kasper Hämäläinen, Jani Hartikainen, Mikko Hauhia, Vesa Heikinheimo, Tapio Heikkilä, Jonni Heikkinen, Roope Heilala, Niko Heiskanen, Mika Helin, Mehmet Hetemaj, Jonne Hjelm, Jarkko Hurme, Peke Huuhtanen, Antti Hynynen, Niko Ikävalko, Wilhelm Ingves, Mikko Innanen, Izuchukwu Aniche, Anssi Jaakkola, Ville Jalasto, Petri Jalava, Toni Järvinen, Miika Jokiperä, Juha Pirinen, Kim Kaijalainen, Juuso Kangaskorpi, Teemu Kankkunen, Tuomas Kansikas, Pasi Karppinen, Kelechukwu Nnajiofor, Aapo Kiljunen, Jani Koivisto, Aleksandr Kokko, Toni Kolehmainen, Miika Koppinen, Eero Korte, Tero Koskela, Vesa Kosonen, Jussi Kujala, Jussi Kuoppala, Panu Kuusela, Lasse Lagerblom, Matti Lähitie, Mika Lahtinen, Lauri Dalla Valle, Ville Lehtinen, Jukka Lehtovaara, Jaakko Lepola, Lasse Lind, Arto Lindberg, Petri Lindberg, Patrik Lomski, Jani Luukkonen, Tomi Maanoja, Jussi Mäkelä, Mikko Manninen, Marco Matrone, Sakari Mattila, Juho Meriläinen, Petter Meyer, Henrik Moisander, Eetu Muinonen, Henri Myntti, Jaakko Nyberg, Mika Ojala, Antti Ojanperä, Jarkko Okkonen, Axel Orrström, Nicholas Otaru, Anders Överström, Mikko Paatelainen, Jarno Parikka, Kalle Parviainen, Antti Pehkonen, Eero Peltonen, Tuomas Peltonen, Joel Perovuo, Jonas Portin, Saku Puhakainen, Jami Puustinen, Sami Rähmönen, Jukka Raitala, Sami Ristilä, Erno Rosenberg, Tomi Saarelma, Jari Sara, Joonas Sarelius, Juska Savolainen, Jussi-Pekka Savolainen, Vili Savolainen, Rasmus Schüller, Shukri Tatli, Pekka Sihvola, Mikko Siivikko, Mikko Simula, Miki Sipiläinen, Juha Soukiala, Miika Takkula, Jani Tanska, Kimmo Tauriainen, Teemu Turunen, Tuomo Turunen, Lasse Väisänen, Jussi Vasara, Vesa Vasara, Ilpo Verno, Tommi Viik, Petri Viljanen, Mikko Vilmunen, Hermanni Vuorinen, Ville Wallén, Alexander Weckström, John Weckström, Kristoffer Weckström, Tommy Wirtanen, and Erfan Zeneli? Kevin McE (talk) 13:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Careful, some of those played in fully-pro leagues (Tero Koskela for sure). Just because they are in the Veikkausliiga now, doesn't mean they have always been. Jogurney (talk) 14:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not blithely add every player from that league. I looked at all the articles, and looked to see whether those who have been attached to teams in fully pro leagues had actually played for those sides: these are the ones where there is no claim on their articles that they have done anything that would reach the standards of WP:Ath or of WP:N.  Tero Koskela has played in Norway and in Finland, and neither of those nations are listed as fully pro leagues. Kevin McE (talk) 16:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Koskela played in the fully-pro Tippeligaen and Jarkko Hurme played in the fully-pro Serie C1. I suspect there are others that pass WP:ATHLETE as well. Jogurney (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops: I somehow missed the Tippeligaen at WP:FPL, and that would rescue a few of these, and point taken about Serie C1. I was not formally proposing them, but making the point that there are many dozens of articles in Category:Finnish footballers that do not meet the inclusion criteria for the project.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, no worries. I've noticed that plenty of Finnish footballer article fail WP:ATHLETE as well. I was worried that you were formally adding these to this AfD. My mistake. Jogurney (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems that a non-frivolous case could be made for all of those (assuming my sample of a dozen is representative) at AfD even if one considers WP:NOTLAW which seems to be being implied above. I see a problem in that these articles, for the most part, are weak on content, poorly referenced, and just don't add much value to the project.  Another aspect to consider is the notability of these individuals within the context of the English Wikipedia.  While I understand that English references are not a requirement for inclusion, it is quite sensible.  -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 18:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but I never stated that WP:ATHLETE is law. The articles listed above that pass WP:ATHLETE should be improved. However, their status as a stub is not grounds for deletion. Jogurney (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, fails WP:ATHLETE. Has only played in a semi-pro league, and youth caps do not confer notability. GiantSnowman 00:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 00:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - article fails WP:ATHLETE as there is no evidence he has played in a fully-pro league. As it stands, the sources are not sufficient to pass WP:N either. Jogurney (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - some of these players are clearly notable. Need to deal with one at a time. Nfitz (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: User:Nfitz seems not to have noticed my clarification of 18:27 on 7/2/09 that I am not formally adding all of those names to this AfD.  Perhaps he/she could clarify his/her vote in the case of Petteri Pennanen. Apologies if I have confused the issue. Kevin McE (talk) 11:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * A quick search shows he easily meets WP:N which isn't surprising given that he plays in the top flight of Finnish football (even if not fully professional), and given that Football is popular there. Articles in many publications such as, , , and .  So I'll Keep the keep. Nfitz (talk) 18:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: What is the definite source on whether an european football league is pro or not? Seems that the Finnish Premier League, Veikkausliiga is one of the 23 full members of the European Professional Football Leagues (EPFL). If that makes it pro, Pennanen meets the requirements of WP:Athlete. --Ras (talk) 18:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The website you have provided Ras does not list the Veikkausliiga as a professional league - it merely lists the top leagues in Europe. And how do I know this? Well, only the Premiership is listed in England, even though the Championship, League 1 and League 2 are all fully-pro...GiantSnowman 22:36, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Football League (consists of Championship, League 1 & League 2) seems to be EPFL's Associate Member. Can those EPFL members (Veikkausliiga one of 14 founding members) be judged as pro - that was my question? Or is there a better source? I'm guessing that this page WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues has been used to determine whether a league is pro or not, but it provides mostly unsourced data and does not include Veikkausliiga in either category. We should be looking for a better source, which would define the scope of inclusion/exclusion for Euro Football Leagues altogether. EPFL's members + known pro leagues with other reliable sources could be one. At least it would be be better than current, non-sourced list. --Ras (talk) 00:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with your source is that it contains two leagues which are well known not to be fully professional (League of Ireland and Welsh Premier League), which means it cannot be used as a source for proving professionality of leagues. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your point and accept it. After this vote, we should question whether we can source this list WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues to be used as a yardstick. If we can't, we need another way of determining which leagues should be included and which not. EPFL could be a simple criterion for Euro leagues. But that would mean a sidestep from Wp:Ath's pro requirement. IMO less ambiguous criterion (e.g. EFPL instead of trying to prove a league pro or not), but a wider scope of inclusion would be better than a fuzzy criterion. Simple criterion would mean less Afd's and deleted articles. That would also be most beneficial for new editors, who are unaware of wp's interpretations of notable leagues. They need access to a whitelist of wiki-notable leagues from Wp:Ath. --Ras (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Per Ras findings. Govvy (talk) 22:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. The Veikkausliiga article states "Most of the clubs in Veikkausliiga are professional, although some of the smaller clubs are semi-professional", and I haven't found any evidence to dispute this yet. Until he makes an appearance in a fully professional league (for example, whilst on loan to FC Twente), he fails WP:ATHLETE. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  11:58, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * According to this (hardly a reliable source, I know, but it's the best I've found so far), the Veikkausliiga won't be fully professional until 2020! Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  12:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:ATHLETE failure. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  12:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether or not the player meets WP:ATHLETE is not relevent, as I've noted that he meets the general notability guideline by having significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Nfitz (talk) 17:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem that the sources that you provide offer significant coverage as defined by WP:GNG. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail.  Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive. Seems like the coverage is trivial.  -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 18:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Seemed more than trivial to me, as he is the subject of the articles. Nfitz (talk) 02:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * One of the sources is a very brief player profile. The other is a two paragraph piece from the club website, which would be classed as a primary source rather than a third-party source, and which only mentions him briefly along with a couple of other players. Neither are sufficient to make this player notable, as he needs to be the subject of multiple, non-trivial third party sources. Bettia   (bring on the trumpets!)  09:27, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a quick search, and it wasn't difficult to find these, and other articles that mentioned him. Besides, I'm very reluctant to remove a page for a starting player in a mostly-professional League of a major European nation - I think we are starting to split hairs, when we start removing articles like this. Nfitz (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.