Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phil Theis


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 14:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Phil Theis

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Contested prod. Non notable wrestler who had 15 minutes in a big league, no reliable sources except wrestling fan sites, fails WP:BIO. One Night In Hackney 303 04:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. If he was a World Wrestling Federation wrestler, even briefly, doesn't that count as "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming and tennis"? --Eastmain 05:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Surely the actors part would be more appropriate? One Night In Hackney 303 05:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. Actually, aside from appearing at the first WWF Raw, he competed frequently in the WWF during the early 1990s and participated in the Royal Rumble (1993). He also competed in Extreme Championship Wrestling before his retirement. Regardless of the nominator's opinions on professional wrestling, the article contains two independent, non trivial, reliable references (in particular his Wrestlecrap entry). I believe WWE Raw magazine also did a cover story on him in 2005 as well. MadMax 06:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The Wrestlecrap entry is a blatant lie by MadMax. A search of the site in question shows this is the article in question, and apart from in the title there is no mention of him at all. What pray tell is the other reliable non trivial reference? One Night In Hackney 303 07:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Given the lack of reply, I'll assume he means the book which can be viewed here. The relevant part reads A few, such as Mondo Kleen-who was briefly featured in a series of WWF matches as Damien Demento-I am told have come to wrestling from professional football, although later I learn this bit of biography is a fiction. So one source doesn't mention him at all except in the title, and the other perfectly fits the definition of trivial according to WP:BIO. So contrary to the claim, there are no non trivial reliable sources. One Night In Hackney 303 08:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. As I've explained on Dean Peters, Wrestlecrap.com no longer has their articles only save for weekly "classic crap" updates (see: ). Again, if you refer to the search results Hackney refers to, his article "Damien Demento: He's Crazy...CRAZY, I Tells Ya!" was recently posted in last weeks "classic crap". For those unfamilar with the website, R.D. Reynolds has written a large number of wrestling articles over the past several years which can be seen here. I would hope this settles anyone's doubts regarding his inclusion into the website. MadMax 09:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The link provided on the list of search results goes directly to the article I've linked above, which has the same title but no content about Demian Demento. If as you've claimed above it was posted in a "classic crap" update, why isn't it on the site as you claimed it should be? Also if it's no longer on the site, it's not a source is it? Nobody can verify any of the information from it can they? One Night In Hackney 303 09:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually, unless I am mistaken, just cause it was removed from a site does not mean that the source never existed.  That is why it is wise to take your sources with access dates.  I've seen several articles on Wikipedia whose sources are web pages that are no longer active, but their last access date is listed in the references and the concensus is that is acceptable.  Theophilus75 17:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. It no longer goes to the article because, as I've explained, it was reposted last week will not be available until the next time it is reposted. However, in regards to your comments, I never claimed an article would be at the address for this weeks repost nor did I even cite the address in the article or this discussion. What I had said was that there had been a Wrestlecrap entry previously written on Damien Demento. If you'll notice, I included a list of prior inductions from the website prior to its brief shutdown in 2001. This does verify that an independent relable biography was written about him, as the list I provided shows. However, if believe it nessessary, you're certainly free to contact R.D. Reynolds himself to confirm he has written a biography on Damien Demento as his e-mail address is available through his website. MadMax 09:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment What "list"? You provided an alleged source that nobody can see, and falsely claimed a book was a non-trivial source. We've only got your word that the alleged biography is non-trivial, and based on you claiming the book was non-trivial I'm unwilling to assume good faith. One Night In Hackney 303 15:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * COMMENT WHAT LIST!!!!  WHAT LIST!!!!  I'm trying to remain civil towards yo Hackney, but you question that things are there that are OBVIOUSLY there, you call MadMax a lier, and you don't seem open to being wrong...EVER!  I'm beginning to wonder if you are a few cards short of a full deck or intentionally being a dick.  MadMax provided a link to the page listing previous articles (and said as much), and the page lists the article he referred to.  If you are a few cards short, then please re-read things a few time and scrutinize articles a little more before make Afd recommendations or commenting on Afd comment pages.  If you are just plain being a dick...STOP! Theophilus75 17:20, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment It's because of people like you Hackney that WP:IAR is a policy (I believe the first policy) here at Wikipedia.   Theophilus75 17:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I think you all need to step back and take a breath.  And possibly read WP:CHILL and No angry mastodons.  Ford MF 08:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep per Madmax -Drdisque 06:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete unless more reliable secondary sources are found. The 'wrestlecrap.com' source appears to be unverifiable per the above discussion (we do not require readers to contact information sources directly to verify the information in Wikipedia), and the other source in the article sounds like a trivial mention (although I admit to not having read it). JulesH 15:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment He was NOT only on TV once. He was on TV dozens of times, however his most NOTABLE appearance when was he was jobber squashed in the first episode of Raw. He was on Raw six times through 1993 and wrestled in the Royal Rumble, the main event of what was WWF's third biggest PPV at the time. As only 30 men were in the Rumble, that meant that at that point in time, he was in the WWF's top 30 wrestlers and by default since the WWF had most of the name wrestlers at the time, in the top 50 wrestlers in the world. -Drdisque 16:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Perhaps you'd like to provide some non-trivial sources, rather than ones with his name on a page then? One Night In Hackney 303 16:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Those sources were intended to show the extent of his performance on worldwide television, not to stand up as literary works devoted to the guy. -Drdisque 16:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm aware of that, just without reliable sources it's impossible for an encyclopedic article to be written. One Night In Hackney 303 16:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You just went from saying the source was trivial to then saying it was unreliable. Those are completely different things. I have no reason to believe that the source is not reliable. What incentive would one have to lie about who was in the 1993 Royal Rumble? Also, please note that three non-list article-space articles link to the one in question. Deleting this article would break those links. Isn't that the opposite of what we're trying to do here? -Drdisque 16:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment No I didn't. I said the existing sources were trivial, and asked for other sources. Those were the reliable source being referred to, which have yet to be provided. One Night In Hackney 303 08:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I provided two reliable sources. Get off your high horse and open your eyes. -Drdisque 07:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Surely, our standards have to be a bit higher than a wrestling fan site, yes?  Someone who appeared on tv for 15 minutes is not notable. ---Cathal 15:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Reluctant keep - seems to just scrape by notability criteria by having participated in a professional league. There's no time limit there so we can't say "15 minutes was not enough".  Ark yan  &#149; (talk) 15:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment which exact notability criteria are you talking about? I don't see any that apply here.  JulesH 18:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Expanding on my above comment, "Athletes - Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming and tennis" does not apply here because the subject is not an athlete and did not compete in a competition. The appropriate section to look in would be "entertainers". JulesH 18:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment JulesH wrestling is a sport! Govvy 18:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment No, it isn't. One Night In Hackney 303 08:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep sourced, encyclopaedic, guy passes WP:BIO, under the assumption he's an athelete. WilyD 19:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * KeepThe external links covers all the information provided. Phil Theis (Damien Demento) is a notable wrestler from the 1990s. The article seems to be lacking in accolades know. Govvy 10:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment If professional wrestlers are classed as athletes then the subject passes WP:BIO. ŞůṜīΣĻ ¹98¹ Speak 20:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:BIO is flawed and disputed for sportspeople. He was a short-lived, nn wrestler, does not need own article. Biggspowd 21:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve. I believe I remember the pre-fight hype over the Damien Demento vs. The Undertaker main-event fight, just from the TV commercials and people talking about it, well nigh to 15 years ago; and not from being a wrestling fan (which I am not).  Anyay his entry at IMDB has additional examples of possible notability, which can be incorporated into the article.  --T-dot ( Talk/ contribs ) 14:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.