Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Philip Guarino


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 06:41, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Philip Guarino

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Unable to verify certain claims, citations do not reflect a number of accomplishments, number of citations (same one used multiple times) behind firewall, need verification. Author has already removed some challenged items, also self-removed Speedy Deletion tag. Requesting fuller review since the content is not able to be fully verified. &#9790;Loriendrew&#9789;  &#9743;(talk)  02:29, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I am the articles creator and I disagree with the above comments. I believe the article should be kept because it's a work in progress started only today and getting better by the day. I do appreciate the two specific recommendations by Loriendrew,I agreed with him and removed them as you can see from the talk section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Philip_Guarino I began this morning with 19 references and now I have well over 19. As you can see from the edit process, I'm continuing to edit it often as I find more references.  I had originally created this article for fun with no references so that is why I'm working backwards and filling in the references for the information I've already learned.   I want this to become a great and well documented article so I welcome all constructive criticism and will implement it immediately.  With sincere thanks and appreciation, Dr. B. Jones (talk) 04:10, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Dr Jones, it might help if you could tell us what prompted you to write the article in the first place. From what I can tell, it is your only contribution to Wikipedia to date. While that's not a problem, per se, and most people will be happy to walk you through the process (WP:AGF), if you came here to write an article about someone you knew personally, that sort of thing is generally discouraged (you claim the photo of him is your own work so I'm assuming you knew the subject). I'm not sufficiently familiar with the political offices involved to determine if any of the "accomplishments" are significant enough to allow the subject to meet our notability guidelines. There are lots of passing mentions but I'm not seeing a lot of significant coverage so meeting the general notability guidelines might be a struggle. So we would need to establish whether any of those achievements allow him to meet our other notability guidelines. I suppose the short version is: what is it that you claim the subject is notable for? Stalwart 111  10:11, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about the notability guidelines. I would answer his significance is, if you follow the references that already exist: 1) He worked for 4 Presidents, 2) He founded an Order of the Knights Templar in the US, 3) Some sources claimed he was the contact from Licio Gelli and the P2 Masonic Lodge in Italy to President George H.W. Bush. 4) For the 61 years he was in Washington, he was in many prominent roles in politics.  5) Contrary to a claim above, I've found many references, news reports, magazine articles, and mentions of Philip Guarino in both Political material and books related to the Knights Templar. I would be surprised if those reasons don't rise to being significant enough for a mention in Wikipedia. Dr. B. Jones (talk) 12:40, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * By the way, if you're the current Grand Prior of the order he founded, that would most certainly be considered a conflict of interest. I've also got some concerns about WP:WEIGHT issues in the article itself which ignores some potentially controversial reports in reliable sources in order to source particular (and fairly mundane) facts. Stalwart 111  10:18, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note - I'm afraid I've just had to tag it again for speedy deletion - 90% of the content is a word-for-word copy of his biography at the website of the order he founded - http://www.theknightstemplar.org/philip-guarino/. Stalwart 111  10:27, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note to Stalwart111: there is no copywrite infringement as I wrote the article you're referring to, please go to that link http://www.theknightstemplar.org/philip-guarino/and now see the note I have just added on top: "Please Note: This history page is a work in progress as I'm verifying references. I have been asked to write a history of Philip Guarino by  Grand Prior Mark Warren.  - Dr. Jones"   I was approached by their Grand Prior, Mark Warren, to write a historically accurate version of their Founder.  That is 100% my material and a photo that their Grand Prior owns of Philip Guarino.  Now I'm posting it here and working backwards to find all my references that I used for the original article.  I don't believe this is any conflict of interest, my motivation is that I've already done the work there, so if I'm given time to retrace my references, I'm 100% confident that I can add them here.  If you allow me two more days to find the references that I used for my original article, I'm confident that I will find them. Dr. B. Jones (talk) 12:37, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 01:42, 6 October 2013 (UTC)




 * Relisting comment: I had originally closed the discussion after deleting the article as G12 with the following closing comment:


 * The result was   speedy delete. The notice at the top of the page at thenightstemplar.org is not a sufficient release for Wikipedia purposes. The article can be recreated with sufficient references when/if  provides a valid license or release of rights. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 13:47, 5 October 2013 (UTC)


 * At the time, large portions of the text form the article were posted at the URL above, with an insufficient rights release (and a Copyright 2013 all rights reserved tag at the bottom). The copyright notice has now been replaced with a "copyleft" notice stating "Copyleft Free To Use License: The content of this website is free to use for your personal and commercial projects."  I'm willing to accept that as a sufficient release for now, which places the article back under the purview of this AfD discussion. I've reopened and relisted the discussion to give a fair full-length discussion period. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 01:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I owe you a big thanks Darkwind for undeleting, now I was able to copy the project and save it to my computer and not lose hours of my life. Please, if you would, send this article to my sandbox as I learned the following things that I will now change: 1) I will add all of the missing references 2) Make the article more objective. An editor correctly pointed out that Wikipedia doesn't want rose colored articles that make Philip look too good.  I will add more discussion on the claims that he had P2 connections, why he resigned from the George H.W. Bush Campaign, etc.  3) I will make the article smaller and more to the point.  Please understand that I'm new here. This was my first attempt at a Wikipedia Article and I didn't understand that this process should have happened in my sandbox until all my references were inserted. However, I would like a little more feedback on "Notability" please.  Could each editor please weigh in a "Yay" or "Nay" if Philip is "Notable" enough for Wikipedia? Dr. B. Jones (talk) 02:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note - While the article was deleted there was an ongoing conversation with the article creator at User talk:Dr. B. Jones. His comments above are a response to some of the points made there. Until the substantive queries there are answered, I remain in favour of deletion, having not yet been convinced the subject is notable (so that's a "Nay" from me for now) . Stalwart 111  02:50, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for weighing in Stalwart. And yes, he's 100% correct, my comments above are from discussion with Stalwart111.  May I editorialize for a moment?  Stalwart didn't just shoot down my article like 99% of Editors do, he took the time to teach me what is wrong with the article and what could be done to fix it in a kind way.  Therefore, he has my thanks, respect, and admiration.  If more Editors took his tact with first timers, Wikipedia would be changed for the better. Dr. B. Jones (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Washington, D.C.-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - having had a few days to think about it and having contributed to the article itself, there are a couple of points that struck me that I previously hadn't considered. The subject is briefly mentioned in both an LA Times article and a New York Times article. While those wouldn't likely be considered "significant coverage", both reference an earlier 1988 article from the Washington Jewish Week which both suggest was focused on the subject and another individual. Sources need not be online so we don't require a copy of the article itself and the article's existence is verified by those two papers. It was obviously significant enough so that once published, the article was then referenced in two major metropolitan papers and forced a number of people to resign from George H. W. Bush's campaign committee. Accurately or inaccurately, other books suggest he played an important role in events relating to both Michele Sindona and Licio Gelli and is accused of being a conduit between a US President and the alleged assassins of a foreign leader. Whether those allegations are true or not, they caused him to be the subject of at least some coverage. I think there is a case to be made that his involvement in the political machinations of the 70s and 80s might be sufficient to meet WP:ANYBIO and the coverage might almost be sufficient for him to pass WP:GNG. Stalwart 111  00:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 00:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep per but this article needs lots of work. It currently says he was born in Sicily and died in 2006. Two obituaries say he died in 1993 and one of those says he was born in West Winfield, Pennsylvania. He is described as a Catholic priest but I found an obituary of a long time wife. Because of his perceived involvement in shadowy activities, reliability of the sourcing must be evaluated carefully. I believe that some of the biographical information is confused with that of his associate Michele Sindona.   Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  01:36, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! The focus of my little clean up was on those sources that I thought might confer some notability. Haven't gone into the basic biographical stuff but it certainly does need more work if it is kept. Stalwart 111  02:49, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I have edited the article, correcting glaring errors and adding references. I have also tagged the photo as a possible copyvio.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  05:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.