Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pichenotte


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:54, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Pichenotte

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Non notable game, unsourced for 13 years, can't find any independent in-depth coverage. Theroadislong (talk) 08:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 09:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 09:35, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: WP:WikiProject Cue sports has been notified of this discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete I looked too, and could find none, either. A non-notable game (in terms of Wikipedia) - I'm sure it's fun to play, though. Nick Moyes (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete I didn't find any WP:GNG sources either, though I found one for Pitchnut I put in that article, so it has one ref now. I wonder if it would be a good idea to merge some of these articles for similar games into one artice, see Category:Disk-flicking games, Football-style. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Football is essentially a set-index for things that also have their own articles, plus a history-of-their-origins piece, so I'm not sure that's a good analogy. That said, it might still be reasonable to merge some of these games into one article, at least the ones that are clearly directly related to each other, like pichenotte, pitchnut, and crokinole.  At a guess, I would think crokinole is the WP:COMMONNAME.  I saw (via the manufacturer site https://www.pichenotte.com/history-2/ ) that in Canada the terms are sometimes treated as essentially synonymous and divided primarily on a regional/linguistic basis, though actual rule sets and even board types vary.  That is, the games generally can in fact be distinguished, even if the terms are also used more broadly. It's similar to "billiards" which can refer to a family of games or to a very specific game, depending on where you are from and what the context is (e.g., if you are British or Australian, "billiards" usually means English billiards, and if you're American there's a good chance it means pool, broadly, but there's also a good chance (especially if you're a player) that it means carom billiards instead, or you might mean all such games as a class, depending how you use the word).  There's a similar usage crossover/conflict here, where one writer may mean "pichenotte, a specific game, with a square board, mostly played in Quebec", etc., while another may mean "pichenotte/pitchnut/crokinole, a cluster of games played with discs, on boards of various shapes, with varying rule sets".   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, pending better WP:BEFORE. No one appears to have checked obvious sources like boardgame books, Quebec folkways books, etc.  Not every subject's notability can be determined by perfunctory WP:GOOGLE stabbing-in-the-dark.  Not every subject is covered by current news reports or journal articles, much less online ones, but that does not mean there is no significant coverage in reliable sources.  Also, how much effort has been put into looking through French-language sources (cf. WP:BIAS)?  As noted above, I'm not entirely opposed to a merger.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:01, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Fwiw, someone may be making an effort:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve. I haven't found good enough sources, but that's mostly because my French is poor. Found mentions in these books:, . This game isn't some passing fad or internet sensation, and I feel confident that it's a significant part of Quebecois / Acadian / Franco-Canadian culture. If I'm wrong about expanding this, there's enough verifiable here that it should be merged to a suitable target. Archrogue (talk) 20:16, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The first is a passing mention, no good. The second may be good for a WP:GNG-point, but what I can see is very limited and I don't know the language, so I don't know if it's about the topic of this article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:24, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I note this page at Quebec Association of Pichenotte Players, it has nothing useful for this article, but of course that was 10 years ago. Their historypage is also pretty bare. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume everyone found, it seems hugely relevant. I'm not certain this should be an article, it might be better off as a redirect? Hobit (talk) 08:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment This from Tavistock Times Gazette (?) seems somewhat WP:RS, and I think it supports the argument for a Merge with crokinole, and maybe a few others should be merged there too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:07, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: I find myself remarkably unclear on whether there's any actual difference between pichenotte and pitchnut, or whether they're really just French and English names for the same thing. Having an answer to that question would certainly help me make a more informed decision one way or the other, because "redirect to pitchnut" isn't quite off the menu yet. Bearcat (talk) 22:31, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
 * October 5, 2020 To the Editors from DVQuebec

I have CONFLICT OF INTEREST as owner of www.pichenotte.com and I own the US Trademark for PICHENOTTE and a PAID hobby of making pichenotte boards, I will defer to other editors to correct, amend and edit the entry for pichenotte to provide accuracy and inclusiveness.

MY SUGGESTED ADDITIONS, CHANGES AND REFERENCES/ CITATIONS FOR PICHENOTTE --- Pichenotte is a French word derived from pichenette which means 'flick'. - Pichenotte is a United States Trademark

The Quebec Museum of Civilisation 'aka' Musee de la Civilisation de Quebec has two collection exhibits for the game of 'pichenotte'.

The round board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation

The square board at the Canadian Quebec Museum of Civilisation - - On the square board, the edges of the playing surface are bounded by raised wooden sides. The object of the game is to strike a wooden disc such that it contacts lighter discs and propels them into one of four corner pockets. These pockets are usually larger than those on Indian carrom boards. The playing pieces come in two colors denoting the two players (or teams, in doubles play). An additional piece is colored red (or other unique color) and called the "queen" or "king".

- On the round board, the playing surface is raised above the floor of the board and is surrounded by a ditch enclosed with an octagonal or round wall. The board is divided into four quadrants with three scoring zones made up of three concentric circles and one center hole. Eight posts, positioned equally around the innermost scoring circle line, surround the center hole. The object of the game is to knock your opponent's pucks from the board while keeping your own on the board.

- The aim of the square game is to sink one's eleven pieces before the opponent sinks theirs. However before sinking one's final piece, the queen must be pocketed and "covered" by pocketing one of one's own pieces on the same or a subsequent shot. Fouls, such as crossing the diagonal lines on the board with any part of one's body, or scratching (pocketing the striker or sending it off the board), lead to one of one's pieces being returned to the board.

- The aim of the round game is to score as many points as possible, while limiting those of your opponent. At the end of play, all pucks left on the board are counted (according to their position in each of the three scoring zones) and added to any pucks that came to rest in the center hole (these are removed from the board). Many variations of the rules exist.

Rules for Round Pichenotte World Crokinole Championship Pichenotte Dot Com

Rules for Square Pichenotte - Quebec Association of Pichenotte Players

The round game also has other names, which does cause confusion, such as:

French: Croquignole flick, biscuit, bun English: Crokinole - Anglicized form of the French Croquignole

German: KnipsBrat - the flicking board

The word pichenotte is used liberally to describe other games that include the action of flicking. Such as Pichenotte Hockey

There seems to be no book references to the square or round game of pichenotte, however, there is an important book about the round game aka crokinole called The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly Publisher: 1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada 2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012 ISBN: 0-919783-83-X 1. Crokinole (game) I. Title GV1312 K44 1988 794  C88-093933-8 -- There are newspaper articles about pichenotte tournaments and events in Santa Fe, New Mexico:

1) Tavistock Gazette September 27, 2020

2) Santa Fe New Mexican October 27, 1998

3) Santa Fe New Mexican December 19, 1999 - 4) The Albuquerque Journal August 10, 1999 - There are many webpages confirming the common knowledge that pichenotte also refers to the round game Round Pichenotte_1 Round Pichenotte_2 Round Pichenotte_3 Round Pichenotte_4 Round Pichenotte_5 Round Pichenotte_6 scroll to the end of this page

Let's look at some round pichenotte boards for sale on the web:

Round Pichenotte_7 Round Pichenotte_8 Round Pichenotte_9 Round Pichenotte_10 Round Pichenotte_11 Round Pichenotte_12ef>https://offerup.com/item/detail/854976201/

Let's look at some pichenotte tournament photos from New Mexico

Friend and Family Playing Pichenotte Photos

See also www.pichenotte.com

Book ReferencesBold text (even though no mention is made of Pichenotte) The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly Publisher: 1st Edition: Boston Mills Press, Erin, Ontario, Canada 2nd Edition: Stoddart Publishing Co. Limited, Toronto, Ontario, Canada Revised Third Edition: Self Published by Wayne Kelly 1988, 1999, 2012 ISBN: 0-919783-83-X 1. Crokinole (game) I. Title GV1312 K44 1988 794  C88-093933-

--- Pichenotte is often used as a pet name for dogs or cats Pichenotte Pet_1 Pichenotte Pet_1 --

I have reached out several times to the representatives of the square game, both FQJR (Federation Quebec de Jeux Recreations and AJQP Association de Jeux Quebec aux Pichenotte in Quebec about their games and rules and inquired about who makes them, but they have never replied to my phone calls or emails. --- Items to consider for changing:

2) The current entry for pichenotte states without reference: "The term is sometimes also mistakenly used as the actual name of other games of this class, such as carrom and crokinole."

Who is the authority to be cited ? Who is pronouncing this judgment ? and to what purpose ?

3) The current entry for pichenotte states: "While the specifics are uncertain, pichenotte certainly must have originated from the Indian game carrom. In the mid-19th century, carrom was likely brought to Canada by Indian or British immigrants."

It could be stated more correctly that 'perhaps' or 'probably' or 'likely' pichenotte originated from the Indian game of carrom.

4) The current entry for pichenotte states: " Another variant of the game called pitchnut" without a reference. The reference is

-- items to consider for adding:

1) What millions of Quebec residents know, is that the word pichenotte refers to many games involving a flicking action. They use the word instead of carroms, crokinole, and croquignole. They play pichenotte hockey, pichenotte football, and when they flick each other on the nose or the head, they say they are giving a pichenotte. Pichenotte is a common name for animal pets such as dogs, cats, and birds. --

From The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly First Edition [] "Origins of the name'' The name "crokinole" derives from croquignole, a French word today designating: in France, a kind of cookie (or biscuit in British English),[9] similar to a biscotto; in French Canada, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape).[11]

It also used to designate the action of flicking with the finger (Molière, Le malade imaginaire; or Voltaire, Lettre à Frédéric II Roi de Prusse; etc.), and this seems the most likely origin of the name of the game. Croquignole was also a synonym of pichenotte, a word that gave its name to the different but related games of pichenotte and pitchnut. Crokinole is called knipsbrat ('flick-board') (and occasionally knipsdesh (flick-table)) in the Plautdietsch spoken by Russian Mennonites." -- Wayne Kelly states on page 21 of First Edition of The Crokinole Book " It is outstanding unusual that, in an age when countless trillions of words have been cranked off the press concerning subjects....next to nothing has been written about a highly popular social activity such as crokinole". --- page 22 " ...with regard to all responses and photographs received from museums, archives, historical societies and individuals polled from coast to coast....none added information as to the origin of the game."

-- The Crokinole Book by Wayne Kelly ISBN: 0-919783-83-X Third Edition: ( spiral bound)

pg 41 "Similar to the search for crokinole history, a surprising lack of information about the game of carrom was positively the rule back in 1987 - at least here in North America. Happily, that void is now being addressed by several diligent researchers, historians, and game aficionados."

pg 49 " Great variety has existed in the size, shape and weight of the simple crokinole board." "The early octagonal boards (my personal favorite) weighed close to 11 pounds..." " Round boards, too, have had great popularity." " Round boards have the tendency to show up in specific geographic regions....in Waterloo and Wellington counties of Ontario and in various communities across Quebec"

pg 59

" The designs and dimensions of crokinole boards seems as varied as the men who turned a hand at making them".

DVQuebec adds: Surely, Crokinole players the world over, owe a great debt of gratitude to Wayne Kelly, now deceased although his son Caleb is carrying the torch as 'Son of Crokinole at

......................... -

Signed:

ThreeVictors (talk) 04:05, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi . This is not really the right place to post this type of edit request per WP:AFDFORMAT; so, I've collapsed it per WP:TPG. The best place to post such requests are on article talk pages like you tried to do at Talk:Pichenotte. Your request, however, wasn't formatted correctly; so, I cleaned up it up a bit as Talk:Pichenotte. For future reference, if you make another edit request on the article's talk page, all you really need to do here is provide a link to it; there's no need to repost the same request here at AFD as well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   20:25, 9 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep This game is/was ubiquitous in French Canada. There is very likely literature on it. In looking I found a scholarly article on games played by older adults that has a section dedicated to it. As the game is played by older folks, and is decreasing in popularity, I'm thinking that most information about it will be found offline, but should be easily found in books about French Canadian culture. Acebulf (talk) 01:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)


 * * The Musée de la civilization du Québec has/had an exhibit on it. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to reach out to them. They likely have very strong sourcing. Acebulf (talk) 01:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.