Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Piers Gaveston Society


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep. - Bobet 21:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Piers Gaveston Society
Non-notable student club, self-serving article, Delete. BlueValour 21:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Sounds implausible and nn, but it does get ghits. Why anyone would want to name their society after a 14th century version of Waylon Smithers is beyond me. Tubezone 21:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC) Weak keep. Passes WP:POKEMON as it's at Cambridge Oxford, not West Podunk, and has had notable members.
 * It's at Oxford, not Cambridge. We Cantabrigians would never have something so base. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 00:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you Cantabrigians have better societies to join, like the Chaplin Society. Heh heh.. Tubezone 00:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep As notable as Skull and Bones, albeit in the UK, and with a more interesting namesake. -- Charlene 22:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - There is no comparison - this is a dining club of 12 people with minimal media coverage. The principal on here is not to have separate articles for college clubs unless a need for a separate article has been demonstrated. BlueValour 22:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. In the last ten years, has been mentioned in The Times on ten occasions, in the Daily Mail on eight, and the Evening Standard four times. It has three mentions in the Daily Telegraph, with one mention each in the Daily Mirror, Daily Record, Financial Times, Guardian, Independent, News of the World, Express on Sunday, New Statesman and the Western Daily Press. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 22:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the citations, links, or include them in the article? Carlossuarez46 03:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Conditional delete unless someone can provide links to the media coverage claimed by Fys. Carlossuarez46 03:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Not seeing the encyclopedically notability here. I really don't think this is comparable to Skulls & Bones at Yale in terms of significance, though it is verifiable - Ivy fraternities are quite different from Oxbridge drinking societies. A Factiva database does indeed turn up hits. It's almost all brief mentions in gossip columns. There is some more substantial coverage from 1988 including a Washington Post story with the headline "OXFORD STUDENT'S HEROIN DEATH SHAKES BRITISH ARISTOCRACY". The story is goes on about drugs and alcohol excess amongst toffs at Oxford and centers on the great great grandson of Otto von Bismarck (the dead girl student of the headline was found in his room): Bismarck himself is described as a rich and elegant young man with a somewhat macabre sense of fun. According to one account in Rupert Murdoch's News of the World, at one Bismarck repast modeled on a Bavarian hunting party, two pigs' heads were strung up above the banquet table, dripping blood all over the food. The same article features a photograph of the gaunt, fair-haired Bismarck dressed as a nun. According to News of the World, "Von Bismarck is a leading member of Oxford's Piers Gaveston society. It was originally an all-gay group and the rules say members have to dress in drag and parade openly in public.". So yes, this is a verifiable out-of-control very small elitist drinking society for toff sons and daughters of notable toffs at Oxford. It's not the Cambridge Apostles, and well, it's not the Pitt Club either, as at least that has an actual club building and has substantially more members than 12. Bwithh 04:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment If I'm reading that quote right, it implies that the Piers Gaveston Society had Hugh Grant and Tom Parker-Bowles parading in drag in public, if indeed they were members. The WP article suggests that the members engage in, ahem, even less dignified activities, although it lacks cites for the claim. Presumably some of the PGS members were at the bloody boar's head banquet as well? That sounds even above and beyond anything Skull & Bones was ever suspected of, although supposedly they have Pancho Villa's skull. Perhaps notable for its degeneracy? Tubezone 08:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep As the originator of this entry, I am of course open to the "Mandy Rice-Davies retort", but I would argue for keeping it on the basis that (1) as Fys states, the Society makes pretty regular appearances in the media (2) It has done so in connection with notable people mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia. (3) Deletion on the grounds that it "minimal media coverage" is both factually incorrect, and a pretty weird criterion for deletion (how many times does, say, Felix Hausdorff get media coverage these days ?) (4) Deletion on the grounds that it's an "elitist" club, as suggested by Bwithh, is both factually incorrect and POV. For the record, I am an Oxford graduate but I was not a member of this club (though I was well aware of its reputation).
 * The press citations:
 * Joe Riley, "A Menu to die for", Liverpool Echo, 23 October 2006, p. 16
 * Stuart Wavell, "Curse of the Count", The Times, 27 August 2006, p. 19
 * Sebastian Shakespeare, "Decadent Days in the Court of Count Von Bismarck", Evening Standard, 25 August 2006, p. 16
 * Philip Sherwell, "Goodbye, Animal House: fraternity drinking has to stop, say colleges", Daily Telegraph, 5 February 2006, p. 14
 * Lisa Sew, "The Taste of Guinness", Daily Mail, 20 August 2005, p. 14
 * Joanna Pitman, "Hugh Grant has a ball", The Times, 18 December 2004, p. 4
 * Richard Kay, "Meet my valentine: Brewery scion dates Miss from his children's school", Daily Mail, 1 December 2004, p. 43
 * "Beyond the fringe" (profile of Hugh Grant), Daily Telegraph, 14 November 2004, p. 25
 * Neil Norman, "Hugh & cry" (profile of Hugh Grant), Independent on Sunday, 14 November 2004, p. 25
 * Richard Kay, "Marriage heartache for Lulu", Daily Mail, 18 March 2004, p. 43
 * "William Hickey": "Another Blair at Oxford", Express On Sunday, 14 March 2004
 * Londoner's Diary: "Hillary's intern is Oxford boy with a royal history", Evening Standard, 6 January 2004, p. 10
 * Sarah Richardson, "Membership has its advantages", Daily Telegraph, 18 October 2003, p. 11
 * Ben Harrington, "Oxford bans page three nipples", New Statesman, 9 June 2003, p. 14
 * Kate Muir, "Having a ball", The Times, 24 November 2001, p. 16
 * Peter Bradshaw, "A Spin Doctor writes...", Evening Standard, 1 November 2001, p. 22
 * "Cambridge debauchery", Evening Standard, 4 July 2001, p. 12
 * Richard Pendlebury, "Femail: Modern Times" (profile of Hugh Grant), Daily Mail, 19 April 2001, p. 54
 * Adam Digby, "Cocaine, Nudity and Public Sex: A night with the elite of Oxford", Daily Mail, 9 July 2000, p. 54
 * Kate Muir, Diary, The Times, 8 July 2000, p. 7
 * Giles Coren, "Toffs Behaving Badly", The Times, 15 August 1999, p. 7
 * Jasper Gerard, Diary, The Times, 22 June 1999, p. 20
 * Edward Welsh, "Tom's Party", The Times, 21 June 1999, p. 20
 * Fiona Barton, "Why is William mixing with people like this?", Daily Mail, 23 May 1999, p. 8
 * Giles Coren, "'Parker Bowles is exactly the shape Shakespeare would draw Falstaff were he writing today. And cocaine would be his drug of choice'", The Times, 18 May 1999, p. 20
 * Steve Smith, "Cocaine Shame: Charles' anger at lover Camilla's drug addict son", Daily Record, 17 May 1999, p. 1.2
 * Alan Hamilton, "Risky friends ring royal alarm bells", The Times, 17 May 1999, p. 3
 * Jackie Burdon, "Camilla's son drugs storm", Western Daily Press, 17 May 1999
 * Christopher Morgan, Maurice Chittenden, "A wild child in the royal family", The Times, 16 May 1999, p. 3
 * Deborah Sherwood, Karen Rockett, "Tom is a wild boy ... his father knows about this and is dreadfully upset", The Daily Mirror, 16 May 1999, p. 6
 * Fiona Barton, "Camilla despair at son's use of cocaine", Daily Mail, 16 May 1999, p. 1
 * Sarah Oliver, "Enter the It boys", Daily Mail, 20 December 1998, p. 42
 * Neville Thurlbeck, Sarah Courtenay, "These sex crazed ravers may be our future leaders", News of the World, 28 June 1998, p. 10
 * Philip Coggan, "Brideshead meets Lavender Hill: Philip Coggan on a hypocritical tale of an insurance sting that went wrong", Financial Times, 15 February 1997, p. 6
 * Andrew Pulver, "Portrait: Whatever's happened to Hugh?", Guardian, 10 December 1996, p. T.6
 * Hope this helps. Fys. &#147;Ta fys aym&#148;. 12:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * With Fys having responded to the "non-notable" element of the initial argument put forward for deletion of this article, perhaps BlueValour could expand on the meaning of "self-serving", so this can be responded to. Robma 20:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.