Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Plato's Republic in popular culture


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep. John254 14:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Plato's Republic in popular culture
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Pure original research, making uncited claims of similarities to other works. Eyrian 17:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Article has been sourced and moved. Change to keep. --Eyrian 15:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the motivation of this deletion spree, I'd prefer 'speedy keep', but I'm going to be satisfied if this gets merged into The Republic (Plato), probably as a new subsection. In either case, keep. Digwuren 17:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. Not a list of trivia, and the similarities commented upon are easy to cite if you wish (I'll start by doing the first one for you... the rest shouldn't be tricky, either). JulesH 18:12, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh. I didn't actually say anything about trivia. You must be thinking of something else. That said, that section really should be moved. Aristophanes is not popular culture. --Eyrian 18:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - solid mass of original research. Article asserts that various works were "most likely" related in some way to The Republic (unsourced) or that particular works include elements that are also present in The Republic (no source that either The Republic or the noted work actually include that element or that the later work was in any way inspired by or adapted from or in any way connected with The Republic). Tear it down. Otto4711 19:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete per nom and Otto4711. Plato is turning in his grave. This article (BTW pure WP:OR) describes Plato's influence on Aristophanes and More ("popular culture" indeed) and on Huxley, Orwell, the Wachowski Bros and others (here's the big, steaming pile of OR). "Plato's Republic has has been influential in literature and art" (duh) but calling it an influence on popular culture is absolute nonsense. --Targeman 20:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * go and read the article. Some of the refs are available full text. DGG (talk) 21:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep but re-title. There will be abundant documentation for the influence on Aristophanes, More, Huxley, and Orwell--the association will not have escaped the critics in the one to twenty-five centuries since the works were written. There's probably enough for Heinlein too. 20:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Documentation has just been inserted for almost all of these, and then some, including a book on the philosophical implications of The Matrix. Suggest those commenting above revisit the article. It's harder to source than to destroy, but more rewarding.   I can source one article a day, but it is possible to nominate twenty. If it is really desired to improve WP,  and if the people disliking these articles are not prepared to go to the work of checking themselves for obvious references, they should at least nominate them slowly so other can. DGG (talk) 21:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This nomination is fundamentally different from the others, as the article was. Note the different terminology in the nomination, it's a dead giveaway. --Eyrian 21:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd ask those who are voting delete if they would consider a renaming of the article to Influence of Plato's Republic in literature, purging the OR and replacing it with a well sourced article (that is not a list of trivia or of Republic allusions). That is an article that can certainly be written.  Please do comment on this suggestion.  CaveatLectorTalk 21:30, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. --Targeman 21:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. A lot of blue links here, a lot of references, and overall it's a sensible article. For me this takes away the stigma added by 'in popular culture' in the title. The connections asserted here must already have occurred to millions of people, so it's hard to consider it WP:OR, or synthesis. EdJohnston 22:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. As per the person said above. The subject is notable. As WP:SUMMARY says, extra stuff should be split of when making the original article too long. Mathmo Talk 00:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)]
 * Keep This is what a pop culture article should be. Plato has an influence 23 centuries later, with people debating, reinterpreting, and criticizing what he wrote.  Did Plato envision that the Republic would influence thinkers well into the future?  Perhaps.  It's just as difficult for us to imagine what might be remembered in A.D. 4307. Mandsford 00:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. I see a huge difference between "influence on thinkers" and "influence on hoi polloi", or popular culture. The day I see Joe Sixpack, or even a mainstream newspaper, discussing Plato's Republic, I'll be willing to change my vote. The authors of "Matrix" may have read the Republic, but how many viewers understood that? How many have even heard of the book? --Targeman 00:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * But who's to say that Joe Sixpack won't read the Republic later in life?  Just as a lot of people end up going "back to school", people who resisted classics during their teenage years often come back to them.  My favorite pop culture reference was when Marilyn Quayle was quoted as saying, "Every year, Dan tries to read Plato's Republic."  She meant to make him sound intelligent, and people inferred just the opposite.  Mandsford 14:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, don't merge or rename. References have been added to the article, so the OR complaints no longer stand. "...in popular culture", while imperfect, is the standard name for these kinds of articles. Punctured Bicycle 07:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep as recreated as a redirect to Cultural influence of Plato's Republic, which shows how various notable movements stemmed from this, now if could find WP:RSes that Pac-Man had led to Aristophenes and Heinlein, then that may have been a keeper too. I think that most editors can see for themselves the signifcant difference between these articles. Carlossuarez46 20:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per nom's changed mind, consensus above, and WP:HEY. Bearian 20:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep Per nominator's withdrawl. I have tagged the redirected article with various wikiprojects to draw more attention to it. Hopefully, this will soon look like articles of this type SHOULD look.  CaveatLectorTalk 17:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.