Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polonization of Eastern Germany (1945–1990)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. RL0919 (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Polonization of Eastern Germany (1945–1990)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This is a highly POVed piece of OR and/or a POVFORK of 1944–50 flight and expulsion of Germans. The term "Polonization of Eastern Germany" doesn't really exist in scholarly literature in this context, and certainly, not in this language, which seems taken from some far-right German booklet or other rant ("the Germans native to the region of the region were expelled, subjected to collective guilt for the crimes of the German Nazi regime"... " over the war years, Polish ambition grew"... "Polish revisionist claims"... "Execution of Ethnic cleansing"... "Despite propagandistic claims that the areas were root Polish, the land was completely foreign to the Polish immigrants"... "Polish scholars sought to marginalize the German history"... "A recurring theme refers to the alleged ever-Polishness of the ares" and many more). While it is not unimaginable this topic could be written about, this has to be done in with respect of WP:NPOV, and using sources that are verifiable (99% of the sources cited here are offline books, making verification of the claims and language used, very hard). I suggest WP:TNT this. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Germany,  and Poland. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. Well, we already have articles on Germanisation of Poles during the Partitions, Germanisation in Poland (1939–1945), and Expulsion of Poles by Nazi Germany, plus others. Are all those articles objectionable as well? This article looks to be about the reversal of that process. Ejgreen77 (talk) 10:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:56, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: while the topic of settling Western and Northern Territories is fascinating and definitely deserves an article in some form, the article discussed fails to portray the depth of the topic and focuses mostly on mistreatment of Germans and (select) foreign reactions. It isn't *that* bad for an article written by a user with such obvious biases (he managed not to mention any "ancient Germanic tribes" as he did in Masuria some time ago) and perhaps it could be saved if an effort is put to enrich and de-bias it. It'd be a colossal task however; POLITYKA's "Historic Assistant" has a whole number about it and it still does not feel enough. Whole books can be written that focus on the resettlement in just a single city, not to mention the entirety of "Recovered Lands". Even the topic that interests Tino so much, that is the treatment of Germans, was fairly different depending on the region (from some they were expelled in the very first years, but in others they continued to live for decades; and yet other areas have a surviving German plurality to this very day.) SMiki55 (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * changed to Delete per Marcelus, other articles do a better job at describing the topic SMiki55 (talk) 21:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete I hate this style of referencing, mainly because it is so good at obfuscating sources. I mean, Siebel-Achenbach p. 61, I couldn't even FIND 'Siebel-Achenbach', let alone have the energy left for P. 61. The average reader is in no way going to be able to verify or check any of this, and we in fact fail WP:VERIFY ("other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source.") to a very worrying degree. Remembering WP:BURDEN, we also have an author who does not appear to have taken any effort to ensure that the source material is accessible, again a worry in an article covering an area so rife with nationalism and the legion dangers of POV. The nomination highlights a number of instances of concerning language - and all of these together lead me to a shudder and a delete vote, with the hope that someone, one day, creates something better IF this subject does, indeed, merit an article - which right now I honestly am left doubting. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 15:32, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Some first comments:
 * The topics covered are clearly not in 1944–50 flight and expulsion of Germans.
 * I have deliberately not used 'classic' German expellee literature (save Siebel-Achenbach maybe). All works are recent publications by international historians, many of whom have Polish names. Why does the article fail on WP:VERIFY? Use your local state library or buy the books.
 * Polonization is a well-known term. Polish authors maybe don't use it for the events after 1945, but international authors do.
 * The article makes sure to provide the context that it was the Germans who started it. However, some commentors seem to have problems with applying some "evil terms" in the context, that are not usual in, I guess, Polish literature. The allegedly problematic statements are fully sourced, literally, from several sources (I could indeed add some more cross-references!)
 * "the Germans native to the region of the region were expelled, subjected to collective guilt for the crimes of the German Nazi regime" -> that is even explaining and defending Polonization and putting it into context. All international comments on the events put it to this context.
 * "over the war years, Polish ambition grew" - this defends the Polish from the Nazi/right-wing expellee interpretation that the Polish had wanted to annex the lands already before 1943. "Polish revisionist claims" is mentioned in the same context. But yes, the Polish had revisionist claims, anyone doubt that? Mostly every nation has.
 * "Execution of Ethnic cleansing" -- was the expulsion a voluntary resettlement as the Communists claim? Please be honest and read the reports!
 * "Despite propagandistic claims that the areas were root Polish, the land was completely foreign to the Polish immigrants". Please read some first-hand reports by Polish settlers. "Polish scholars sought to marginalize the German history" - of course, they did, and understandably!
 * Tino Cannst (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete, this topic is well-covered: 1944–50 flight and expulsion of Germans, Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II, Emigration from Poland to Germany after World War II, Recovered Territories, Territorial changes of Poland immediately after World War II, Former eastern territories of Germany, History of German settlement in Central and Eastern Europe and probably some others I wasn't able to find. We don't need another article on virtually the same topic, especially since it's unverifable and contains a lot of controversial statements. Marcelus (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Delete I certainly see the PoV, of which the author seems unaware, since they cite 'Germans were subjected to" and "Polish ambition grew" as examples of neutrality. I find Marcelus' list compelling, though, which is the main reason I am voting delete and not rewrite. I will change my vote if the author can demonstrate that this article covers some aspect of the topic that isn't already covered by the articles on that list. Elinruby (talk) 21:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete, to me it seems like a fork of Recovered Territories, but the content might be better suited under Former eastern territories of Germany. In any case, there is no reason for this new article to exist on its own. --Glennznl (talk) 13:26, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. An article on this topic could exist (indeed as others have pointed out we already have several), but it would need a different title and different contents.  For instance, 'Eastern Germany' is not the normal way to refer to these areas in English and it can easily be confused with 'East Germany'.  Eluchil404 (talk) 08:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point; that very phrase is very POVed. This is not something any non far-right politician would say in Germany, to avoid sparking a diplomatic row with Poland. In fact, given the border treaty between Poland and Germany, it is neutral to call those territories Western Poland. Or, with stress on clarity, like we do here: Former eastern territories of Germany. Eastern Germany redirects to New states of Germany anyway, adding to confusion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.