Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Portland Linux/Unix Group

I believe that this page should stay. Entries like this are what make the wikimedia much more current and relevant than any printed encylopedia could ever be.

Today it's been micronations, vanity pages, college radio stations, non-notable schools, patent nonsense, the usual vandal bot and now this. Do local/regional computer clubs get an entry? - Lucky 6.9 02:00, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC) I added the PLUG page. My belief is that PLUG is more than just a "computer club". It is representative of the culture of Portland Oregon. We're a bit different out here (see the FreeGeek and PersonalTelco links).
 * If high schools can get an entry, why not Linux user Groups? (Note: I am the webmaster for PLUG, so consider this a question, not a vote against VfD.) -- llywrch 03:17, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Is there something particularly distinctive about the Portland LUG that makes it any more notable than a typical representative of the thousands of other LUGs out there? --Robert Merkel 04:03, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Was there anything distinctive about the Homebrew Computer Club that would qualify an entry in Wikipedia? -- llywrch 05:11, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: It's simply a case of numbers and uniqueness. Geogre 13:57, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Does the group number a thousand active members, or any significant individuals in the Linux/GNU community? If not, I currently vote delete. Besides, the current page has more external links than text... Average Earthman 14:24, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable.  Bacchiad 18:02, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since the focus of this discussion seems to be on things that differentiate PLUG from other LUGs, I'll innumerate them:


 * PLUG has been in continuous operation for ten years. That's centuries in Net years.


 * The Linux Fund and FreeGeek were started by PLUG members. Both projects have significant national visibility.


 * PLUG for Education created a thin client system called K12LTSP, that is being used by schools world wide.


 * Notables who participate in PLUG include: Randal Schwartz, Randy Dunlap (USB kernel drivers), Phil Hughes (Linux Journal), members of IBM's Linux Technology Center, and members of the Open Source Development Lab. Ward Cunningham, another local, has participated to a limited extent.

The page may be a bit link heavy. I was trying to demonstrate the things that make PLUG unique and to show how PLUG fits in with the community. If the page isn't deleted, we may be able to get llywrch flesh it out. --Rasp


 * Who are you? Please sign comments in VfD. Average Earthman 21:52, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, fixed. --Rasp 00:10, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have to admit that Rasp has been a little too enthusiastic about the influence PLUG has had. No, Schwartz, Dunlap, & Hughes are not core members of PLUG (although Randal does participate on the PLUG mailling list). However, we have encouraged a few further developments in Open Source/Free Software: the Personal Telco Project is a spin-off from PLUG, & our group has influenced other LUGs in Oregon & southern Washington. And there are a few local developers (like Zach Welch) who look to us as a place to express their ideas & share their work before it gets published.


 * I want to be neutral about this discussion, but I have to wonder if the line for inclusion in Wikipedia is being drawn fairly. There are articles about high schools; articles about porn stars; articles about American cities with fewer than 100 inhabitants; and countless articles on telecommunication or computer technology. Is it fair to include all of these, & to exclude a "computer club" that I consider is in the top 20 or 30 of this category?


 * Well, it's not as if there's a fixed editorial body judging Wikipedia, it's whoever comes along to do it. If you find articles in Wikipedia that are clearly wrong or irrelevent, you're free to nominate them for VfD. I just vote my personal opinion on what is presented in front of me, and at the time of nomination, the page didn't give me a strong impression of notability. I think the page needs a major rewrite at the least, I'd rather any important information was on the page than on the end of a link. Average Earthman 12:32, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * At the least, I feel it is unfair to lump PLUG with "micronations, vanity pages, college radio stations, non-notable schools, patent nonsense" or "the usual vandal bot". I don't know who Rasp is, or if he even attends one of our meetings, but unlike the rest of this collection of fringe groupings, PLUG will survive, grow & even thrive without an article in Wikipedia. Despite my obvious interest in this article, I really don't care if it passes VfD or not -- but it will make Wikipedia look foolish & capricious when one of our members develops the next big thing in Open Source/Free Software, & some overly critical types vote an article on this group off of Wikipedia. -- llywrch 05:11, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to sound as if I was lumping you in with anything else. Your article was posed during a rather stressful time here.  Lots of very unusual articles were being posted.  A delete vote isn't a personal attack, and it's often difficult to express that in text. - Lucky 6.9 06:03, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I appreciate the clarification. --Rasp 21:17, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear who it is who is questioning the relevance of Randal et al, but I don't think I said they were "core members". Phil Hughes founder and former editor of Linux Journal has helped us out in a number of ways over the years - but most of it was behind the sceenes. Randal and Randy have at times been very active on the mailing list. --Rasp 21:17, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I wrote that, Rasp, & it is based on my experience with the group. Unfortunately, we seem to be somewhat at cross purposes -- can you email me offlist (there's a link to a form on my User page), so we can provide a better defense of this article? -- llywrch 04:46, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Significant to enough people. Wile E. Heresiarch 02:10, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)