Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Portrayals of The Joker in film


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  Sandstein  18:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Portrayals of The Joker in film

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Article was spun off of Joker (comics) but is merely duplicative of information presented there. It adds nothing but extensive plot summary, which is discouraged per WP:PLOT. As it cites no sources, it also contains quite a bit of opinion and original research. Basically there is no reason to have a separate article on the character's portrayal in film, as this is already covered much better in the main article. Per WP:SS, the section in the main article should be developed and expanded with reliable secondary source material before a split is considered (note that the section in the main article, though better-written in that it favors real-world contexts, nonetheless only cites 3 sources). Since this article is 85% plot summary, 15% unreferenced claims & OR, it should be deleted. IllaZilla (talk) 00:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.   —GentlemanGhost (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.   —GentlemanGhost (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep A comparison of a basic role across multiple works is not plot summary. The article seems to still in in process--the discussion of the different films in uneven. There is certainly enough information in the various reviews to source it, and eliminate the impression that it's OR. . considering the extent of the material and the importance of the character, a separate article seems not merely desirable but almost essential. It expands, not duplicates the information in the main article, I think it corresponds to Section 5.1, Live-action, which, quite properly, is a summary of this. -- if it does not expand on it sufficiently, it can be further developed.. DGG (talk) 03:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The article as-is makes no such comparisons, though. It re-presents a summary of the Joker's roles in the plots of each film, and then makes unref'd analytic claims about them. Granted, improvement may be possible, but my contention is that this should not have been split off from the main article. The development needs to happen there, where some decent material already exists. In the future, if it seems the section is getting to the point where it can stand on its own, then by all means split it off into an independent article. But merely jumping straight to the independent article (without even including the decent info from the main article) is entirely premature. I'm not aware of any other media-specific character articles, so I don't really have a precedent to point to. Superman in other media, maybe, but that's really just a list article. Common practice seems to be to discuss all portrayals of these characters in main articles, ie. Superman. As I say, a future split might be appropriate, but the gun was severely jumped and it should be nixed in order to keep the development in the main article where it belongs. --IllaZilla (talk) 03:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete article shouldn't exist in this form. As noted above the procedure is to expand the relevant section and split it off and in comics you'd split the whole "in other media" section off. Given the fact that this was previous done, to Joker's appearances in other media, and then merged back in again means this is also going against consensus that the section isn't ready for a split (if someone thinks it is then they should feel free to start a split discussion). (Emperor (talk) 03:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC))


 * Delete per Emperor. A redirect to Joker (comics) would be pointless. Jonny2x4 (talk) 04:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Article consists only of plot and original research. Main article already adequately covers this topic. That article may need some trimming, but that doesn't justify this article. Jay32183 (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * merge+redirect (see below) keep . Joker (comics) is entirely about the comics, and is already quite long, so a separate article about portrayals in movies and possibly TV is warranted - BTW Batman is almost equally restricted, I don't understand how it reached FA with this huge gap in coverage. It would be quite easy to improve Portrayals of The Joker in film from reviews cited in the WP articles about the movies and TV shows. Remember that WP:DELETE says where possible artciles should be improved rather than deleted. --Philcha (talk) 14:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 2 points to rebut here: 1) Joker (comics) isn't jsut about the comics. That title is merely a disambiguation. Note the "In other media" section, which covers live action, animated, and video game adaptations. Same thing with Batman: An "In other media" section covering films, animation, etc. with a link to the separate article Batman franchise media. Clearly not a "huge gap in coverage", and exactly how these things are expected to evolve along the lines of WP:SS. 2) No one is suggesting that this subject matter couldn't be made into a decent article. What's being said, rather, is that it needs to develop in the main article first before it's allowed to split out on its own. Otherwise we're just going to be back here in a few weeks trying to merge stuff back in. Somebody put the cart before the horse, and instead of working on the existing "In other media" section of the main article, developing it to the point where it could stand on its own, spun out a separate article in favor of expanded plot summary and original analysis. That needs to be nixed so that the development of the content can happen in the main article, where it belongs, and we can do it now while there's nothing to be merged. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You've convinced me. I've changed my vote to "merge+redirect", with the redirect going to the relevant section of Joker (comics) for the benefit of those who are more interested in the movie and TV portrayals. BTW in Joker (comics) it might be helpful to retitle that section "Movies and television". --Philcha (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem I see there is that there is no referenced content, so there's nothing to merge, and the title is complex enough that the chances of it being a likely search term are miniscule. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep but add sources. The topic is viable; there is great interest in how the Joker has been portrayed throughout the years, especially Ledger's performance which I've heard tell has attracted some academic study (that's anecdotal heresay - I have no source to offer but if what I've heard is correct sources should be out there). Romero's performance has been addressed in several books on the Batman TV series as well as the autobiographies of Burt Ward and Adam West, which can be cited. Viable spin-off regarding a notable character in popular media. As noted above, an easy first step is to simply borrow sources from other Joker-related articles and start from there. 23skidoo (talk) 14:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See my responses above. The contention is not that the topic is not viable, but that it should be developed in the main article Joker (comics) first before a split is considered. Splitting it now was entirely premature and resulted in an article of nothing but plot summary and OR, and by nixing it while there is still nothing to merge we can assure that the positive development of content happens in the main article, until such time as it may warrant a split. This provides a better service and context both to our readers and editors. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: I overlooked it before, but there was a previous AfD of this article under a different name, when it focused solely on the Nicholson adaptation: Articles for deletion/Joker (1989 Batman character). The consensus was almost unanimously to merge the content back into Joker (comics). I'm not sure why that was the result, as the entire contents of the article before renaming were 3 unreferenced sentences. When there is no referenced content, there can be nothing to merge. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete and/or merge as appropriate. Plot summary aside, there's no reason why a quick precis of each of the portrayals can't be held within the Joker article. Anything more in-depth would be more appropriate to the individual film articles. Girolamo Savonarola (talk) 16:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Per Jay2183's comments. Top  Gear  Freak  16:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.