Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Posterity of Heaven (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While there is not a consensus that this would never be an appropriate subject, the consensus is that at this time, there is not sufficient source material available to support an article. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Posterity of Heaven
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This page should be deleted as per WP:DEL-REASON 6.: Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources, including neologisms, original theories and conclusions, and hoaxes. A previous deletion discussion in 2007 resulted in no consensus. This article has only two sources. The first source is incomplete and consists only of a title, publisher, and year. From what I can tell this source is referring to “한국적 신학형성과 단군신화 연구” (단군학회 편 자료집, 1999) by 박영규. This is from a Daejongism conference (see details at this website) that makes no mention of Cheonson/천손, the topic of the Wikipedia article. The second source, What does the national holiday mean? by Park In-Taek and Han Chang-soo, is only used as a reference for the etymology of the holiday Gaecheonjeol which is not the topic of the article. The contents of the present article are therefore supported by no sources. What's more, I was not able to find any reliable sources for Cheonson in the academic literature, or more broadly in reliable sources indexed on the web. Yannn 11  15:13, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Delete for absence of significant coverage in RS. See WP:NONENG - if the sources given are to be pushed forward as the justification for claiming WP:GNG then there's a great deal of work to be done. Springnuts (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 15:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * There is this book in English, published by SAGE Publications, but it was published in 2018, well after the Wikipedia article was written, and you would be hard-pressed to call that significant coverage. For this to be kept it looks like sources in Korean (which I don't read) will be needed. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that Korean mythology is not the topic of this book. In a single paragraph describing Dangun, the only mention of Cheonson is in the sentence Human beings are considered the descendants of Dan'gun and are considered the posterity of Heaven (Cheonson, 천손天孫). Considering the Wikipedia article has existed since 2006, this book was published in 2018, the sentence in the book is unsourced, and the sentence uses similar wording as the article, this could likely be a circular reference. Yannn11 14:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Keep While the state of this article is appalling, there are definitely more than enough reliable sources (albeit mostly in the Korean language) to establish both its notability. Just FYI that this originated (contested by some Korean scholars who argue that it was exported to Japan from Korea) from the Tenson kōrin mythology of Japan, and English-language sources may also use the Japanese term Tenson when referring to the Gaya Confederacy founding myth. I'll clean it up when I get some time to work on it. Freedom4U (talk) 06:11, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Could you please provide said sources in this discussion? The assertion that the sources must exist does not justify the current article (e.g., WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES). Yannn11 03:15, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * To reply to the second part of your comment, I think by "this" in FYI that this originated you are referring to aspects of Korean mythology that share similarities with the Tenson kōrin myth (천손강림신화). These may be appropriate or already found in Korean mythology or Dangun. I do not think you will be able to find a source for the topic of this article (Posterity of Heaven or Cheonson (천손, 天孫) designates the Korean people because they are considered the descendants of Heaven or the heavenly god.). If you can find such a source please add it to this discussion. Yannn11 15:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, I see the diference here, potentially merge with the Tenson korin article could work. "Aspects of Korean [Gaya, Goguryeo, Balhae] mythology that share similarities with the Tenson kōrin myth" is what I was referring to by 천손, claims of descendancy from heaven made by various emperors of Korea.
 * Here's a few sources I've found:
 * https://www.gimhae.go.kr/07025/00050/00103.web?gcode=1191&idx=31&amode=view&
 * https://muse.jhu.edu/pub/334/article/805034/pdf
 * (Most comprehensive of all the sources, there's a few mentions in other chapters of the book as well) https://brill.com/downloadpdf/book/9789004262690/B9789004262690-s009.pdf
 * (mentions in passing) https://rks.accesson.kr/assets/pdf/7517/journal-7-4-57.pdf
 * (mentions in passing) https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13173/jasiahist.50.2.0175
 * (mentions in passing) http://islandstudies.net/weis/weis_2017v07/v07n1-2.pdf Freedom4U (talk) 01:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not necessarily opposed to a merge, but given that the Posterity of Heaven article would need to be renamed and rewritten (renamed because "Posterity of Heaven" never appears in any of these articles and Tenson kōrin is always referred to as 천손강림; rewritten because the current contents are unsourced and confused), I don't quite see the point. Although if the end result is that the unsourced article in its current form is deleted, a merge seems reasonable. Thanks for the sources on Tenson kōrin. Yannn11 19:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star   Mississippi  15:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete: judging from what was said in the nomination and including the comment above, this is largely original research. The relevant points of the article could well fit into other articles, but the one being discussed here doesn't seem to fit Wikipedia's guidelines. Rkieferbaum (talk) 13:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Do you have any additional comments? To summarize the current discussion, Springnuts and Rkieferbaum are also in favor of deletion. Freedom4U is in favor of keep or merge, but finds that the state of this article is appalling. The article in it's current form is unsourced. Freedom4U has provided sources for Tenson kōrin/천손강림; however, these sources do not support the current article subject of "Posterity of Heaven". Yannn11 22:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeah sounds about right, I think there should be an article about this, but this definitely isn't the article. Freedom4U (talk) 22:45, 3 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.