Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus appears to be that this article should be deleted. WP:ROADOUTCOMES is the only rationale cited for keeping the article, but that specifically states that "Major, unnumbered streets... have varied outcomes." rather than the apparent inference that they are invariably kept at AfD. Number  5  7  14:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue
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(quoting a message from in 2012, who may not know the correct procedures: North Avenue, the north approach road to Rashtrapati Bhavan, New Delhi has not been renamed. It continues to be known as North Avenue (in symmetry with South Avenue, the south approach road to Rashtrapati Bhavan). All links provided in the article are dead. The article should be deleted." — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:28, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * No Opinion. This is a procedural nomination.  The visible comment that the article should be deleted has been in place since 2012; no one has removed it. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:37, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. I had forgotten that I had made the nomination last time.  It should be noted, but, as none of the sources are in English, I don't know whether they support the material as written.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 14:45, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment, "It should be noted, but, as none of the sources are in English, I don't know whether they support the material as written.", huh? [|reference no.3] of the article from The Tribune News Service (India) is in English, and states under "NDMC to set up shelter for homeless kids Tribune News Service New Delhi, November 22   Setting up of Ashrary Grih (a shelter for homeless children and women), naming of unnamed roads, ... are some of the major decisions taken at the monthly meeting of the New Delhi Municipal Council held today. ... The council also gave the approval for naming the road at North Avenue starting from Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital to Rastrapati Bhawan after Late Pandit Shri Prakash Vir Shastri." Coolabahapple (talk) 15:15, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * But that is no indication of notability, only (partially) of existence. I've pinged the editor who entered the visible paragraph saying the article is wrong to comment here, although having a note at the head of the article saying that it's wrong for over 4 years suggests a certain lack of interest.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 15:58, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Delete it. I live in New Delhi and have travelled on this road numerous times over the past five decades. Many roads in India have been renamed over the past few decades to honour politicians or religious persons but almost no one refers to those roads by their new names. Almost everyone continues to refer to the roads by their old names except for roads that were originally named after British colonists (such as Robert Clive or Lord Cornwallis, whom the British had sent to rule India after he was defeated and imprisoned in American Colonies). The road which is the subject of this discussion is still called North Avenue by almost everyone. Ask any taxi driver in Delhi to take you to Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue and he would give you a blank look. Ask any taxi driver in Delhi to take you to North Avenue and he will immediately know where you want to go. The Rashtrapati Bhavan (President's Palace) has one road going south from it and this road is called South Avenue and one road going north from it and this road is called North Avenue. Both N Ave and S Ave form one straight line. It makes no sense to rename the road and still more nonsense to write an article about this new name on Wikipedia. Check any online map on your computer or smart phone and you will find these two avenues but not Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue. Moreover, the officials in the central government and the local municipal body continue to use the term "North Avenue". Both these avenues have apartments built for and allocated to members of parliament. The parliament secretariat and the estate department (which allots and maintains these apartments) always calls this road North Avenue. Quite possibly, the local body has reverted to the original name because recently I have seen the road sign on this road reading as "North Avennue". Delete this article. It is not required.

Disclaimer: This is not to belittle Mr. Prakash Vir Shastri or his achievements. He was a good, honest and honourable member of parliament (which cannot be said of a majority of contemporary politicians in India). A Wikipedia article on him exists. But there is no need for an article on this road. Rao Ravindra (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC) Ravindra Rao 17 October 2016
 * so this article could possibly be renamed, having a look at WP:ROADOUTCOMES, the question seems to be, is this a major road, from comment above it appears so? Coolabahapple (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the road was never named "Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue"

North Avenue is not a major road. New Delhi is somewhat like Washington DC. The local municipal body (New Delhi Municipal Council or NDMC) has very little authority and most of its decisions have to be approved by the Administrator or the Lt. Governor both of whom report to the Central Government. Any resolution on renaming any road can be passed or adopted by NDMC but can be implemented only after it has been approved or ratified. Perhaps the resolution to which the article refers was passed by NDMC but never approved by its Administrator. I have never seen any road sign on North Avenue referring to the road as Prakash Vir Shastri Road. Even the government estate office and all government offices refer to the road as North Avenue.

Nevertheles, if this article is to be retained, it can be renamed North Avenue, New Delhi. But really there is no need for this article. There is no corresponding article on South Avenue, New Delhi. Anyway, this is not a major road. A major road emanating from Rashtrapati Bhavan is "Rajpath". And therefore there is a Wikipedia article Rajpath.Rao Ravindra (talk) 17:16, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:ROADOUTCOMES. A major road in Delhi, capital of India. It is this road where President palace's main gate (#35) opens to, including many others notable establishments (source). The road was renamed in 2002, but has been there for several hundred years. When you Google it, try alternative name, 'North Avenue, Delhi'. Anup   [Talk]  21:28, 18 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete It is a minor road. Anup Mehra says "the road ... has been there for several hundred years." He has a very fertile imagination. New Delhi was created only in late 1920s and early 1930s. The whole area was agricultural land before that. There is nothing worthwhile in this article.Rao Ravindra (talk) 19:53, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Struck double !vote. You've already !voted delete in the discussion. You can add as many comments you want but not !vote twice.
 * Answer to your comment: Construction of the Viceroy's house was started in 1912 and completed in 1929; I'm highly skeptical that they would build such an important establishment in the wild. The whole region has a very rich history, and the state has served as the capital city of many empires before 1912. The state of Delhi was created in 736 A.D..


 * At the very least, one should note that, "New Delhi" (a region within Delhi) was recognised as a city in 1911, and the construction of the home of the ruler of India started in 1912 which opens to this road; so it could very well be argued to be the first road of the New Delhi region (if the region was uninhabited before). Anup   [Talk]  20:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Anup Mehra's (lack of) knowledge of history is appalling. The whole region, where New Delhi was built, was rural dotted with a number of villages and their agricultural fields. Rashtrapati Bhavan stands at what was Raisina village. It was only one of the several dozen villages which were entirely uprooted (and their residents sent elsewhere in rural Delhi) to make way for starting the construction of New Delhi a few years after the end of First World War. The British did build the new city in the "wild" (as he calls this region which was populated with several dozen villages) and his skepticism means nothing. North Avenue is one of several hundred minor roads in Delhi and an article about it is not worthwhile.Rao Ravindra (talk) 04:31, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It'd be nice you concentrate on comment rather than commentator. Click blue links from my previous comment; believe me you would know many new things from there. Start from Rashtrapati Bhawan - there you will know, it was Viceroy's home built in 1912. Then, open New Delhi - King George V - established the city in 1911. Are you telling me that they built this building where there was no road-connectivity to outer world? Or Viceroy's home opened to an agricultural land? I'm sorry, but that's plain ridiculous. Anyway, what exactly is your source of information? WP:CITE them here? Be aware that original research is prohibited. Anup   [Talk]  04:50, 23 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Remove your ignorance yourself. Go on, make some effort! It will do you some good. Evidently you did not bother to read Wikipedia articles on Rashtrapati Bhavan or Raisina Hill to which I had provided links. There is a lot of published material stating the sequence of construction of New Delhi in 1920s with maps and sketches and write-up and it is also available in digital form. It may be nice if Anup Mehra reads those instead of saying "I believe", "I am skeptical", "Are you telling me", "That's plain ridiculous", et al. Maps of this rural area before 1911 are available online showing the villages and their agricultural land with dirt tracks connecting the villages and a railway line (Delhi-Mathura) passing through what is now India Gate. Contrary to what he asserts, New Delhi was not established in 1911; it was only talked in December 1911 at Delhi Durbar to move the capital from Calcutta to Delhi. Rashtrapati Bhavan was completed after the first world war. Several dozen villages were removed and new roads built by the British during and after the war. North Avenue is one of these new roads built by the British when they built New Delhi. It did not exist earlier. (Rastrapati Bhavan itself stands on what was Raisina village and its agricultural land. Malcha Marg in Chanakyapuri is named after another of these removed villages.)

North Avenue is one of several hundred minor roads in Delhi and an article about it entitled "Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue" is not worthwhile.Rao Ravindra (talk) 13:29, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I asked for Evidence. All what you have posted here; seem nothing but Original research what is not allowed on Wikipedia. You are arguing that British started building Viceroy's house where there are no road connectivity. And yes, it is plain ridiculous. Anup   [Talk]  17:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nordic   Nightfury  07:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete The sources do not adequately demonstrate inherent notability: they mention the road, but are not devoted to it. The road cannot likewise WP:INHERIT notability from the buildings that line it. Muffled Pocketed  09:04, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that notability is not inherited. I'm just arguing that it is major road and should be kept per long-established consensus and precedent, WP:ROADOUTCOMES. Anup   [Talk]  11:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: Anup, this official source has convinced me that North Avenue did not exist in 1912, etc, etc. While original research is prohibited from incorporation in articles, but for things such as AFDs, a minimal quantity of checking can be useful. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 10:52, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for ping and reference. I read the source; and found an image. This is the road I'm arguing to be a major road (how the road looks like now). 87 years is still a long-time, and it is not likely that this road is going to be abandoned anytime soon. The road beside which resides a country president and members of parliament, must be a major and notable road (for me, it is common sense. However I do not mean to say that people who disagrees with me lacks common sense.). I'm not asking you to !vote keep. Every editor should exercise their best judgement; this one is mine. Anup   [Talk]  11:30, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * After much bluster (but no substance) and skepticism and calling me ridiculous, Anup Mehra finally made some effort (as I had asked him to do) to read (one of several) published sources and had to concede that this minor road did not exist before Rashtrapati Bhavan was built on agricultural land. Now, when he cannot argue logically, he begs to use "common sense" to say that the road "must be" s major road!! Must be? How? I have lived in New Delhi for six decades, am thoroughly familiar with Delhi's history and used this road a few times. This road is one of several hundred minor roads in New Delhi and an article on it is of no value. More so because no one calls it Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue. The title of the article is a misnomer. Delete it.Rao Ravindra (talk) 14:51, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't call "you" (read again and again, and may be ask someone who could read better) but your assumption that there was no road connectivity to the house of ruler of India, ridiculous. I stand by that. I didn't ask for people to !vote based on common sense but use their best judgement. You clearly don't get the sentence "original research is not allowed on Wikipedia" (that you just know that it is a minor road, no one calls it so, etc.). And I don't see any sense in continuing this conversation; wait for other editors to jump in and weigh their view-points. Anup   [Talk]  17:49, 26 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Good for you that you realized your limitation and stopped giving sermons to others who are better informed and well-read. Was it not your original "research" when you wrote that North Avenue "has been there for several hundred years"? (From where did you get that fanciful idea except creating it in your head?) Or that "New Delhi was recognised as a city in 1911" when only the nebulous idea of creating a new city was floated at Delhi Durbar in late December 2011 and the new city slowly took shape in 1920s and 1930s? For your information, construction of Connaught Place, the main market in the new city, New Delhi, finished only in 1933, two years after the New Delhi was formally inaugurated in 1931. When you wrote "...it must be a major and notable road..." what was the source? You create these imaginary thoughts (major and notable road) in your mind without any source and then advise others that "original research is not allowed on Wikipedia". Indeed! Even after user Hydronium Hydroxide removed your ignorance and informed you that North Avenue did not exist in 1912, etc., etc., you are obstinate enough to again write "your assumption that there was no road connectivity to the house of ruler of India (is) ridiculous". What is ridiculous is that there are ignorant users like you who do not know history, are not well-read and refuse to learn.Rao Ravindra (talk) 19:17, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete (or Redirect if properly merged): On available evidence it needs a rename at minimum. The Rashtrapati Bhavan site uses "North Avenue" and indicates that Gate 38 (not 35) provides pedestrian access only. Doesn't appear to meet WP:GEOROAD or WP:GNG based on secondary coverage. It's one of a few precincts for MP residences), there's been few mentions in stories, there's the Cathedral Church of the Redemption and the Aam Aadmi Party headquarters and the hospital. All rather thin, but incorporation in Lutyens' Delhi appears reasonable in the absence of evidence of more than passing coverage. ~Hydronium~Hydroxide~(Talk)~ 10:34, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Your welcome &#124; Democratics Talk 10:12, 3 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete The problem here is not notability, but verifiability. I tried to search a lot but all mentions of "Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue" seems to be Wikipedia mirrors/copied information. The tribune source is the only one which mentions that a decision to change the name was taken, it doesn't say it was implemented. All other sources continue to use North Avenue (the official presidential websites as well as media sources) and the relation between this road and North Avenue remains ultimately unclear. Perhaps it was proposed as a name only once? Anyway due to verifiability concerns, I do not think this needs to be kept (or even merged/redirected). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:57, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I just noticed something. This page was originally titled "North Avenue" and then it was moved to the current title. Anyway, since there is no evidence that Prakash Vir Shastri Avenue formally exists, I would say this article can be deleted (there is also hardly anything to salvage from here and I don't like that redirect hanging around). However, I will leave a note on the talk page of Lutyens' Delhi about North and South Avenue so that other editors can add info and cite reliable sources. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:16, 10 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:V as this road may not exist. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:59, 20 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.