Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pratt–Romney family


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. With the refocus of the articles and the move, it has become very difficult to define a single consensus. I can say for certain that support for keeping the article on the combined families is low, and shouldn't be kept as an article. It currently is no article, but a redirect to the Romney family. How to handle that is beyond the scope of this AfD. Only part of the discussion here is relevant to the refocussed article now at Romney family. There has been fairly little opposition against keeping this refocussed article, and it counteracts most opposition to the combined article (though doesn't take away all opposition). The Pratt family article is very new and thin, and there has been no discussion whatsover on that article. Relisting this single discussion to get more input on the now changed situation could be an option, but would likely only further the confusion. I'm comming to to following conclusions: The outcome on the Pratt-Romney family article is delete. The redirect that stands now should be discussed again, though not necessarily trough RfD. The outcome on the Romney family article is keep, but because of the loss of focus of this discussion there should be no prejudice against speedy renomination (which is usually reserved for no consensus closes). The article on the Pratt family has not been discussed here, and no conclusion can be drawn about its inclusion from this AfD. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Pratt–Romney family

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There is no evidence presented that this group of people is a notable family in American history. The source provided to make the claim only refers to the Romney family, without mentioning the Pratt side. We might as well have an article on the Bush-Obama family. They are related too. BigJim707 (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - but explain connection by including that: Helaman Pratt, son of Parley Parker Pratt, early Mormon church leader and missionary, was the Mormon mission president in Mexico City. He obtained permission from President Diaz for Miles Park Romney and other Mormons fleeing Polygamy Laws to buy lands and establish colonies in Mexico; partly with funds advanced by the Mormon Church, in Sonora and Chihuahua. These became known as the Mormon Colonies. Thereafter the families intermarried with one of the two wives of each man producing direct ancestors of Mitt Romney. 21:41, 29 January 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by OneSTARman (talk • contribs)  — OneSTARman (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep, but rename "Romney family" (which is talked about, e.g. ) and note their descent from the Pratt family and relation to Huntsman (which is noted in reliable sources). Fences  &amp;  Windows  18:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Or even Split into Romney family and Pratt family, as the Pratts are "one of the most important families in the Mormon faith ... Parley Pratt, had 12 wives and was chosen by Joseph Smith as one of the 12 Apostles." Fences  &amp;  Windows  18:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete – It's WP:OR/WP:SYNTH and there's clearly no better redirect target between Romney family and Pratt family. I do agree that the information in this article regarding each family is enough to support its own article. I think renaming or moving would be impractical, but wholesale copying of information about respective families into their own articles would be appropriate. JFHJr (㊟) 18:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest keeping it, but trimming it back to Romney family as User:Fences and windows suggests. --Coemgenus (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete These "so & so is related to so & so" articles often get reported in credible media, especially with current in-the-spotlight politicians, but it's usually just a BS story on a slow newsday. No real substance or notable connection between these families deserving of a combined article.  Quinn &#10048; BEAUTIFUL DAY  19:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. Cusop Dingle (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Synthesis using non reliable sources (in fact, virtually no reliable sources for anything at all in it, and absolutely no reliable sources to link the two families (I checked - the only places showing a link are Wiki mirrors!). The "family tree" is entirely SYNTH.  Sources include youtube and a "family association" website.  And the topic as such is non-notable (the fact that absolutely zero reliable sources make the link is a hint about that, I trust).  Lastly, it is connected to BLPs and WP:BLP requires the removal of all material not properly sourced - i.e. the entire article here.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Perhaps a useful comparison is the AFD Articles for deletion/Family of Barack Obama (2nd nomination)? (I'll comb through Category:Political families of the United States and try to find more.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why compare with other articles? Other stuff exists is not a good argument.  Cusop Dingle (talk) 20:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comparing other articles would be to say, "Hey, there are wikiarticles named Claiborne-Dallas-Boggs family, Heard-Hawes family, etc." What I'm doing is referencing AFDs.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Cusop Dingle (talk) 20:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I appears that these political family articles are only nommed prior to presidential elections, as the only AFD I can find is for Obama's. Here is a merger discussion involving the Kochs though: Talk:Koch family.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. This coination of two families is not akin to any single family article, nor do other articles use non reliable sources for inclusion of non-notable people without any actual evidence of relation.  The single and only sourced fact is that Romney is descended from Pratt -- all the rest is SYNTH at best. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:59, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * But don't such considerations as you reference have more to do with article naming/content than the article's mere existence?--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete- OR or synthesis at its best; my go to subject expertise ref The Political Graveyard has an admittedly incomplete list of political families, Pratt not grouped, lists Romney family. Michigan governor George Romney's mother's maiden name was Pratt...and that's as far as it goes. Until covered by multiple independent reliable sources, fails WP:N & WP:RS... unless the sources are found. Willing to re-evaluate substantive progress. Dru of Id (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep- As retitled, meets WP:N, and my concern with OR/SYNTH is now an editing issue. If kept (at its current title), Romney section should be above, the rest by degrees of separation. Dru of Id (talk) 04:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Cmt Basically the many pages in the category refer to catch-all articles detailing notable families of political influence (btw, of course, there are families that are not distinctly/solely political: the Kochs; the Brontes; etc etc). IAC, once an article on a notable family exists, they tend to be linked to in the articles of family members:
 * Final graf at the blp for novelist Brady Udall reads "Udall is a member of the Udall family..."; As an aside, the Udall-Lee(-Hamblin-Hunt-Stewart-Kimball) family has three of its members currently in the U.S. Senate: 2 Democrats and 1 Republican.
 * the lede at Charlotte Brontë begins "Charlotte Brontë ( /ˈbrɒnti/; 21 April 1816 – 31 March 1855) was an English novelist and poet, the eldest of the three Brontë sisters...";
 * Bobby Kennedy's lede, which reads "An icon of modern American liberalism and member of the Kennedy family...";
 * 2nd sentence of Jeb Bush's blp reads, "He is a prominent member of the Bush family...."
 * 1st graf below lede at article Teddy Roosevelt: "Main article: Roosevelt family. Roosevelt often described his ancestry as... ... "
 * Wrt sources existing referencing Pratt-Romneys, perhaps one or more of the following would help?


 * From earlier this month in the New York Times: "The Romney and Huntsman families — two intertwined clans that go back to the early days of Mormonism — publicly split in 2008 when Mr. Huntsman, then the Utah governor, endorsed Mr. McCain."
 * Another one, 4 days later, from the Salt Lake Tribune, "No love lost between cousins Romney and Huntsman": "...Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman share the same ancestor, early Utah settler and Mormon leader Parley Parker Pratt, though the two presidential candidates carry a lingering grudge that has seemingly grown wider on the campaign trail."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 06:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * "The precipitous mountain pass that led the pioneers down into the Salt Lake Valley was first explored by my great-great-grandfather, Parley P. Pratt."---Turnaround, by Mitt Romney (2004 - link)
 * "...young Gaskell Romney married a Pratt girl, Anna Amelia. ... Anna Pratt Romney, George's mother, belonged to the bluestockings of the Mormon establishment."---Romney's Way: A Man and an Idea (1968)
 * "Gaskell returned to Mexico and married Anna Amelia Pratt, who would become Mitt Romney's grandmother. Anna was descended from one of the most important families in the Mormon...."---The Real Romney (2012)


 * --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:07, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would expect some members of the leading families of a community to marry each other. But that does not necasarily create a notable combined family. BigJim707 (talk) 21:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps someone should have a discussion with you about the birds and the bees.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why not hyphenate all the family names of long time Mormon families together? I'm sure that connections between all  of them could be documented. Why just combine these two? BigJim707 (talk) 02:28, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * A significant percentage of people of similar ethnicities tend to be 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th cousins (Bush--Obama; McCain--Obama, etc.), that winnows down exponentially when it comes to the first few degrees of the cousins-relationship--2-to-the-fourth-power is 16 while 2-to-the-twelfth-power is 4,096--such that influential family relations from many a locale retain a strong ancestral bond and become classified as belonging to whatever "family of prominence." Next time you go to a newsstand or drugstore, pick up a smallish paperback with a man in a unbuttoned, thinish-material, flowing shirt on its cover: "Penny Perlwither told herself she could not care less that Mr. Brett Masterson was of fifth-generation McGregor County, McClintock family stock. Yet, were not his imperious gazes somewhat unsettling? Didn't they cause with inside her some element of excitement that, no matter how hard Penny tried, she just could not suppress? Not completely, anyway. He interrupted her reverie. "So, Miss Breyerson," he spoke, as the wind got a hold of Penny's long dress...." (I think, anyway.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 03:04, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - A demonstably notable subject within the fields of Mormon studies, U.S. political families, and genealogy, although there are a number of problems with the article itself, as presently written/sourced.
 * Mormon studies is only taught at a handful of instututions of higher learning--however, Mormonism itself has as many religious adherents (of course combined with more agnostic members of its religio-ethnic culture) in both the US and (roughly) the world as the Jews. (Both groups split at about half their populations living in the US and half abroad: 1.7% of the US population's telling a recent Pew Research they self-describe as Jews and the same percentage doing so as Mormons--while, for sake of comparison, a little over half that percentage of US residents describe themselves as Muslims.) A people that have been in existence less than 200 years, within it are sprinkled a handful of eminently influential clans. Noted religion scholar&thinsp;/&thinsp;political pundit Joanna Brooks--whose commentary specializes in the interface between Mormonism and the non-Mormon [once called gentile] worlds--documents three of these: "[U.S. Senator from Utah Mike] Lee [Lee-Hamblins]  hails from a connected LDS political family that includes the Udalls and from an intellectual legacy that would view Skousen [Skousens]  more as an avuncular figure of Mormon folk thought than as a credible source on governance, but his campaign was more evocative of Skousen than his own father, Rex Lee." (link)  And, for mention of a fourth, from a Reuters piece: "'The parallels between the two candidates run as thick as blood. Both Romney and Huntsman descend from Parley P. Pratt [ Note: Hence, a wiki article about the notable Pratt-Huntsmans/Pratt-Romneys/Pratt-etc.s .], one of the most storied early Mormon leaders,' said Joanna Brooks, a Mormon scholar[...]. Both have family and personal connections to the institutional hierarchy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And both enjoy an unusual degree of access to high-ranking church leaders,' she said.'" Yet another salient fact--if but a factoid, to non-LDS--that Wikipedians considering the merits of this deletion discussion might note is that the [Pratt-]Romneys would be well-known in Mormonism even if George W. and W. Mitt Romney had remained obscure individuals, due to other people within the family who are of note within Mormonism. For example, Marion G. Romney was a Mormon Quorum of the Twelve member [apostle] for two decades and was the number-two ecclesiastical assistant [counsellor] to the head cleric [prophet] of the Latter-day Saints for a decade during the mid-20th century.
 * --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 23:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Congratz - yes the Romney family is "notable", the "Pratt-Romney family" is not a recognized unit by any reliable source at all. And, strangely enough, "notability" is a Wikipedia requirement for an article, and you seem to concede that "Pratt-Romeny" is not notable per se.  Thanks. Collect (talk) 00:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)  BTW, the interpolation above "Note: Hence ..." is not found in the source but appears to be your own interpolation, and is not from Joanna Brooks.  Collect (talk) 00:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I concede that "the Pratt-Romneys" is not a term that tends to slips off of anybody's tongue, anywhere; nevertheless, when insiders talk about the Romneys they mean the Pratt-Romneys. (Although I have a sinking feeling I'm losing this argument, so I'll simply stop this line of attack now...lol.) That said, we shouldn't downplay the plain English usage of interconnecting two families with a hyphen and, indeed, purusing the wiki cat of US political families we see a score or more. (But, as for this plain use of the English language wrt the interconnected Parley Parker Pratt&thinsp;–&thinsp;Miles Archibald Romney families, how about this from The Mormon Faith of Mitt Romney (2012):"'The Pratt-Romney genealogical line has produced many prominent leaders in the Mormon Church, including Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt, George S. Romney, Marion Romney, Spencer Kimball, Jon Huntsman Sr., Jon Huntsman Jr., George W. Romney, and Mitt Romney .' [Long list. Did anybody fall asleep through that?]"--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wonderful? A self-published "source" from "Kudu Publishing Services" with the slogan "Let KUDU help you bring to reality your dream of publishing a book. Contact us today to get the process started."   Not a reliable source by a few thousand miles.    So far we have a family site which is not RS, and self-published sources which are not RS.  At this point, I think the argument for deletion is massively strong.  And don;t forget that all material which does not meet WP:RS can and should be deleted.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 03:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I was merely countering the exaggerated claim that no sources for the hyphenated two names could possibly exist.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 03:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There are also mirrors of Wikipedia - but do you really think listing a self-published source would fly here? I looked again - a large part of the entire article is not reliably sourced at all.  Period.  There is no excuse for such an "article" being on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not WikiTafel.  Really. Collect (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Did I say Dr. Jackson's use of the term was a source for its currency? No. I merely pointed out that a competent speaker of the language, such as the Rev. Jackson--who, apparently received his education at Gordon Conwell seminary, Fuller seminary, Northwest Univ., and Jerusalem Univ., has published a bible translation and is a college professor--uses English in a standard way when he refers to the Romney family's P.P.Pratt-descent. Btw, I'm purusing Dr. Jackson's tome now. It is actually an extremely sophisticated evangelical apologetic. It's rare to encounter one this well researched. A quote from the professor's introduction: "There are Latter-day Saints who swim in the theological waters of the more traditional Mormonism represented by systematic theologian Bruce McConkie. Other Mormons embrace the progressive Mormon scholarship of Brigham Young University professors such as Stephen Robinson and Robert Millet."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 04:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Note Apparently renamed, but still entirely non-reliable sourced material - all that was changed is the name - but the contents and internal SYNTH and OR still fail notability requirements. Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:21, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia hosts articles that are on topics that are notable. The topic is notable although the article itself arguably may (or may not) remain anemically sourced (see the article's 55 sources). In any case, Parley Pratt has been termed by Mormon studies scholars Terryl L. Givens and Matthew J. Grow the "apostle paul" of Mormonism (see their seminal biography of Pratt, published in 2012 by Oxford University Press); and the Romneys--along with Huntsmans and Mathesons--are branches on this tree containing the individual family-member twigs that are currently the best known. The very first footnote in the article runs to the article "The New Kennedys":"The Romney family was originally based in Michigan, where patriarch George Romney served as governor. More recently, the clan has been based in Massachusetts. ...Mitt Romney is running for president this year. The former Massachusetts governor follows in the footsteps of his father, who ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 1968. His mother, Lenore Romney, ran for U.S. Senate in Michigan in 1970, and his brother Scott Romney is a prominent member of the Republican party in Michigan. The family also has deep ties to Utah politics (the Huntsmans are distant cousins)."--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 02:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment – After reviewing the changes, I'd like to confirm my vote to !delete. And point out WP:NOMOVE, since it's pertinent and might offer future guidance, though of course it's not binding. Moving an article might best be done after AfD, with votes for !move in the meantime. JFHJr (㊟) 04:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The argument by many seems to be to disregard the guideline stipulating that only the subject needs to be determined to be notable and to keep repeating they think it doesn't pass muster. Point taken (even though, again, the article has a number sources--and certainly more than that, say, the similar WP article about the Prescott Bushes, of H.W. and W. Bush fame); but where is a counter to the sources presented in this discussion indicating the family's notability? (Btw, the only changes I'd made, essentially, were to move the article from Pratt-Romneys to Romneys. If someone with admin privileges would be able to move it back to its original title, though, I wouldn't mind. IAC, thanks for the essay link.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 05:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


 * -Frank Rich, Jan. 29, 2012: "[Mitt] Romney is[...]the scion of a family dynasty integral to the progress of an ­American-born faith[...]." (link)
 * -novelist Sally Denton, Jan. 29, 2012: "...the youngest son of the most prominent Mormon in American politics — a seventh-generation direct descendant of one of the faith’s founding 12 apostles—Mitt Romney...." (link)
 * -historian Matthew Bowman (Random House, 2012): "One hundred and fifty years after the death of his ancestor, Parley Pratt's great-great-grandson Mitt Romney announced his bid for the Republican Party's nomination.... He had served as governor of Massachusettes, and his father, George, as governor of Michigan" (link)
 * --Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 09:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment - I've now added a number of news and scholarly citations to the article. (Note that the Romney family is also of much historical note within Mormon studies due its sojourn to Mexico prior and subsequent to such events in the U.S. as the Reed Smoot hearings--within an effort by the LDS Church to keep the practice of plural marriage alive among at least some members, through extra&thinsp;-&thinsp; U.S. territorial means.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Split. The Romney family is notable (both George Romney and descendants, and Marion G. Romney) and the Pratt family is notable (Orson and Parley especially), but the connection seems a bit too far out.  There was a recent biography of Parley P. Pratt that might be quite useful as a source.John Pack Lambert (talk) 08:21, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.