Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Primitive Race


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Primitive Race

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While supergroups composed of independently notable people are basically always notable, this "group" hasn't actually done anything yet other than make a bunch of Twitter posts. As such, they exist in name only, and so I think this article falls under WP:CRYSTAL. Until we see some evidence of them actually recording, performing together, or otherwise "being" a band, they can't be said to be notable. I've searched around, and can't find any sources that met WP:RS that establish notability either. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 12:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Colorado-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 12:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. As far as I can see, nothing in the article violates WP:CRYSTAL. --Michig (talk) 13:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The claim that the group "exists" in the sense that it has enough "reality" to be the topic of a Wikipedia article is where WP:CRYSTAL. It's the same rationale that underpins WP:NFF--we don't create film articles until principle filming has begun, and then only when the filming itself has gotten significant coverage. I don't see why we should have an independent article on a band for which there is, as yet, no evidence for existence other than a bunch of Twitter comments and an Indiegogo project (which, of course, itself, is merely a plan for the future). Of course, if mainstream music magazines start covering the "formation" of this group, then we could consider inclusion, but we need some reliable sources to actually recognize this group's existence before we report on it. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:05, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's essentially a sourcing issue rather than anything to do with WP:CRYSTAL. This indicates that the band does exist and is currently recording an album. --Michig (talk) 14:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Apparently one of their haters thinks they aren't worthy of a page because they're just jealous. They just released a :35 second sampler clip on Soundcloud the other day. Just because they are doing this as a independent musical venture, and do not have every big name media music outlet talking about them; doesn't mean they aren't credible. Trapjawmusic (talk) 07:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC) — Trapjawmusic (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment. Marked for deletion? Ridiculous. Primitive Race is a bonified supergroup with a solid pedigree. With the clip on SoundCloud, Primitive Race has already released more music in a few months than Tapeworm did in 9 years, and yet Tapeworm has a page. The fact that this article is even being considered for deletion is absolutely moronic.Elmyr (talk) 13:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment And what "main stream music magazines are you exactly referring to? Rolling Stone? Hahaha! Anyways, on serious note; There are plenty of sources that cite them as an actual existing group that has been assembled. You know Google is your best friend, and from the looks of things(your ill thought plan at discrediting a legitimate band) you could use one( a best friend, that is; in case that one flew over your head). Seems the obvious reality eludes you, and the fantasy (i.e. crystal ball theory)as your grounds for argument against their legitimacy, is just as much hearsay as you proclaim them to be, no? Show me where it cites that they do not exist? (again, I point you in the direction of your new best friend Mr.google or Ms. if you need a lady friend). Every one of the articles that come up on Google in reference to PRIMITIVE RACE (The Band) clearly states it's members and who they are and their backgrounds. So if I have a group of friends gather together, does it mean we don't exist because ROLLING STONE hasn't covered said gathering? Do I not exist now, because you have qualms about my credibility because all I have to show for it is some "Twitter comments"? Hmm.. ever read up on existentialism? Or more specific, "Sartre"??? His belief was existence precedes essence. And in fact checking, I actually found that gem here on the Wiki. At least I cite my facts! But enough about me.. Are you able to comprehend what I am trying to explain to you? Your argument is null and void if you only did some fact checking before flapping your gums. Cheers! If you have any more questions you may freely contact me at my twitter chatter page. I am known as @TheBeyst there.. That would be *ahem* THE BEAST.. Think of that carefully before you decide to counter with any idle attacks. Gimme a good rebuttal and you're on.. But so far you have not given much but an empty accusation of displeasure for whatever reason. A group has a right to assemble and in accordance to this assembly they are recognized as a legitimate group, with or without M.S.M. (psst.. that's main stream media. In case you didn't know). Oh and one last thing.. "Notable"?? Not notable? Are you kidding me? Do you live under a rock or are you one of those that has absolutely no knowledge of reputable music that actually takes skill and talent make? I think Menudo is doing a reunion tour, I think they're shoppin for another member..*SMDH* Not notable..! Sheesh.. On second thought.. Please don't try to contact me. You have shown your level of intelligence in the music world to not be worthy of mine. But you get a "B" for effort lil man! Make it a beeeutiful(s.i.c.) day! I know I will!
 * Comment I'm not sure if Trapjawmusic is referring to Qwyrxian for starting this AfD, or myself for asking Qwyrxian about the article on his talkpage. If it is the latter, I assure you I am quite excited this supergroup is coming together.  I have been a fan of the Industrial genre and will be a first day buyer if an album does get recorded from this collaboration.  That being said, I have concerns with the article that I shared with Qwyrxian.  The fact that Twitter posts make up the references coupled with the members listed in the article not matching the bio section in the linked website makes me concerned with the accuracy.  I think the article would be better served with more reliable services.  I'm also concerned that the article has been edited by Primitiverace which could be a significant COI.  I sincerely hope this project gets off the ground, please do not think my concerns are out of jealousy, merely a desire to see an article worthy of both Wikipedia and the musicians associated with this group.  Finally, I want to thank Qwyrxian for helping me out on this, I apologize if I stirred up a hornets nest. Lettik (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I am trying to understand how a few people here are questioning whether or not the existence of the "supergroup" Primitive Race is real without appearing to have done much research. Some of you should learn the definition of patience. There are several sources other than the Primitive Race Twitter account such as member Raymond Watts from the band Pig's official page and Graham Crabb's personal Facebook page both have commentary from official sources which is exclusive to those persons/webmasters alone, coupled with the Soundcloud audio teaser, I think some of these users are making a childish complaint at nothing. This article should not be deleted. Transceration (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC) — Transceration (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Please don't call other users, like me, childish. Facebook, another band page--all of this is just more self-published sources. None f it has been independently verified, as far as I can tell. And, as far as patience is concerned--that's, in fact, the whole point. You, or others supporting inclusion of this page, need to learn patience, because until this group actually exists, has toured, produced an album, etc., they don't exist in a Wikipedia sense. At least, that is the position I am taking based on our policies, including WP:NOT, WP:V, and WP:RS. If the community consensus is that I (and others agreeing with me) are wrong, fine, the article will be kept. But my deletion nomination was made in good faith. And trust me, this is not about "hating" (as an earlier user said)--I don't even know who most of the musicians in this alleged group are. And it doesn't matter, because the whole point is that we need sources to verify this group, and, to be honest, I really think we need them to accomplish something, before an article can exist. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I never called a user "childish" I said the complaint is. There are several sources and judging from the first comment "this "group" hasn't actually done anything yet other than make a bunch of Twitter posts" is a load of nonsense. There are several members who have been identified to be formed in this group and you ignore the Soundcloud clip. As another commentator highlighted the 'band' "Tapeworm" has a Wikipedia page just fine, so whilst you're at it, why don't you nominate that one for deletion as there was nothing credible released from that project. Transceration (talk) 10:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per this, this and this which confirms the band pass WP:NMUSIC criteria #6 "Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians". Transceration, we have kept the article on Tapeworm (band) because it cites Kerrang!, Rolling Stone and MTV, and if you can find articles in these three publications that talk directly about Primitive Race, it will help enormously with improving the article. The problem with Soundcloud it thatanybody can create music and host it there, and claiming you should keep a band article based on presence there is akin to voting "keep" because they have a phone number and email address. It's nothing special. Ritchie333  (talk)  (cont)   10:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment A source that was not self-published via Blabbermouth http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/fear-factory-singer-to-perform-at-cold-waves-ii-festival/ Transceration (talk) 06:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.