Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prince Akram Shammaa


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. No strong consensus has come through over the three weak run of this AFD Nja 247 08:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Prince Akram Shammaa

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

with all respect:


 * I havn,t heard about this prince in all syrian history books.
 * unrelated resources,mostly linked to zengid dnsty not the person or the crusaid wars.some resources has nothing about the article.
 * wrong interwiki --Chaos (talk) 11:49, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete (missing step 3). It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak keep - The article needs a serious clean-up but his political career appears to be notable and there are many sources to back this up. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 15:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - You may also want to look at [Mohammad Shammaa Al Zengi III] - it has fewer sources but he is a prince, and if he meets notability (which I'm not entirely sure about) then Akram Shammaa definitely does. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 15:30, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * With all do respect Prince Akram belongs to the modern syrian history, meaning it is normal that you will not find any indication for him, however if you go back to Khair Al-Din al Assadi's Encyclopedia or Al Hakim book and you will find the indication of the family and his involvement in politics. With all do respect to your opinion, I don't think our discussion should be whether he belongs to the Zengid Royal family or not, because we are trying to unfold the obsecured modern history of Syria, if you want to understand what I mean, please try to mention any other living Monarcy or Dynasty in Syria, didn't syria have any...? we know very well that it had and they exist until now, we are trying to get all the resources to reveal not only this dynasty but also other ones, who are not only dynasties but people who played a role in the syrian history. Please if you have any references feel free to post for discussion.
 * The references that don't have links are books that are not listed online.
 * The Encyclopedia reference has been linked to a page about the Author, It is unfortunate that I couldn't find such a renowned historian on Wiki, so I linked it to a page that speaks about him and his work, his Encyclopedia itself is not online
 * Reference 1 mentions the family druing late 19th century until mid 20th century
 * References 6, 7 and 8 clearly mention the political career of the prince
 * The other links are for the references about the Zengid Dynasty --Andibernard (talk) 11:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Question I would appreciate some comments by those who can read the newspaper material. In the absence of any actual evidence of descent, the historical material may have to be eliminated and the title changed. DGG (talk) 03:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

with all respect for the person that this article talks about, and with all respect to the author, but I had to say that I havn't heard this name in spite I am syrian and I think I know enough about the syrian history. what is mentioned here is not enough to be considered as significant in formulating the syrian history or even small opposite movement in the modern syrian history. the only significant event or contribution mentioned in the article is leadership in a protest against Adib shishakli. this information I couldnt find it in special histrical books... the article mentions few local encyclopedias about alleppo personalities but even if this truth was correct, I couldnt consider it significant enough to make this biography notable for wikipedia while there is no other resources on the web confirm that. the second problematic point is the title: Prince. the author depends on some claims that this person is the head of Aleppo family which comes from Zengide dynasty. I dont know if that is true or not, but even so zenide dynasty is one of many dynasty ruled syria about 1100 during the crusade wars.... Nourdin zengi for example is considered real hero beside Sallah eldein in the islamic history. but still all of those were ruling under formal declaration of the Abbaside caliphate in Baghdad. and in spite that the real authority was for them Zengids and Ayubies but we cannot consider them as ruling family even the method of selecting the next ruler wasn't exactly clear. so I donno if we can use the title Prince or even if it is logical to link modern family with such ancient dynasty. I doubt that such a link after almost 1000 years could be confirmed. the resources in the article are mostly talking abut the Zengids and thier rules in restoring palastine. even the interwiki is refers to the Zengids articles in other wikipedias. --Chaos (talk) 17:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 00:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ( X! ·  talk )  · @180  · 03:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * If you go to the History department at any university library and look under the section of Middle Eastern studies you will find the 2 books that I have provided (ref 6 and ref 8), and that's where I got those citations from. Now whether you personally consider this significant or not I don't believe is objective, we provide a verifiable information and leave the judgment for the reader
 * Now considering the resources and the references, not only in academia but also in Wikipedia we may add references that are books which are not available online. Please refer to Wikipedia citation policies and reliable sources articles for verification, and again whether you consider the reference correct or not, I don't believe we are here to criticize or disqualify scholars work based on our own convictions.
 * Now you mentioned you are Syrian (Chaos), and I do respect you and every one else whether Syrian or not, but considering the Syrian history, please pay attention for not providing inaccurate historical information. The Zengid and later the Ayybid dynasties did not rule under the Abbasid, in fact by that time the Abbasid had already lost power and territory for the Seljuk among others and each dynasty had their own currency, and the name of the Abbasid Caliph was no longer mentioned in "Khutba", in fact Aq Sunqur al-Hajib who was the father of the first Zengid prince Imad ad-Din Atabeg Zengi was the governor of Aleppo under the Seljuk King Malik Shah and had nothing to do with the Abbasid. In case you want to read more please refer to the writings of the scholar Ian Fraizer, and if you don't find him online please look on Wikipedia for the Abbasid; not to mention that the Ayyubid dynasty lasted more than a century longer than the Abbasid. Please any controversies concerning the dynasties or the way they chose their next rulers again has nothing to do with our discussion and whether you consider them legitimate or not is subjective and is disregarding historical facts.
 * Now whether we can relate the subject or not to the dynasty and call him prince, as I have mentioned earlier the 6th and the 8th citations have clearly referred to the subject as Prince while the 1st citation referred to the Shammaa family as the descendents of the Zengid dynasty and referred to Mohammad Shammaa Zengi as the Prince during the time the Encyclopaedia was written. Now as a postgraduate student in History I can't pretend to know how they can link between generations, but for more information please refer to the work of the Sociocultural Anthropologist Dr.David Kertzer. As I am familiar with some of his work concerning ancestry linking even for longer than 1000 years. Again the legitimacy of their work is not our concern here.

--Andibernard (talk) 1:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I do admit the article needs cleaning and some more work and due to time constrains I am not able to give Wikipedia full attention, any further assistant is appreciated, but I would appreciate objectiveness when criticizing the article or the citations.

well regarding the title .. I will discuss it later .. but now regarding the political work : you have mentioned ( he has pivotal role in Hafiz Asad's coup) .... well logically how could a civil citizin who is exciled to neighbor country to play role in military coup. then you continue in descriping the asad's coup and its results .. couldnt you describe in detail this pivotal role if it really exists. the website that you have used is either not working or as I remeber has irrevelant informations.--Chaos (talk) 06:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

regarding the title: I would say sure I was wrong .. Zengid has ruled within the Seljuk Empire and the the Ayybids... actually this period is so complicated and I could make some mistakes .. but the idea was not to deal with the islamic history as the european history. in previous discussion you tried to call Zengid dynasty as Royal family which is european western concept and could be misleading in our context here. for this reason there is no solid base to consider every meber who could have lik to Zengids as Prince.. I could provide you names of many Families who could claim lineage linked to Abbasids who were really official royal dynasty if we can consider that acceptable concept. so should we consider them princes now??

now as we cannot consider the title is official title, then we need confirmed political role or contribution in public life. I was searching for such a role in the article and i couldnt find any specific significant roles except:


 * he led a protest against Adib al-Shishakli (I know alot of names who particapated previously in prtests in syrian history).
 * second : he has pivotal role in the military coup of hafez el asad ... which I found unlogical and not sourced .. actually you urself has descriped in detail the military coup and its result without mentioning any detail about the person's contribution.

unfortuantely it is impossible for me now to get access to the books you mentioned but these books seem like local encyclopedias about aleppo personalities. and for sure such a person who could belong to Aleppo high class would be mentioned in such books. but that not enough for me to consider that notable for wikipedia. I am not sure about the date of thier release .. if they are already in public domain ... you could scan these books and i will help u uploading them to arabic wikisource. I encourage ppl to do that in Arabic wikipedia. to be continued --Chaos (talk) 07:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true" Please read the whole policy article carefully. Whether you disagree with the references or you don't find it logical is totally subjective and unprofessional. I haven't written the books I only cited what they have mentioned, I find it weird that you are referring to those books as "local" repetitively, I have never been to Syria in my life and yet I found those books on the shelves of my university library. The matter of fact that you disagree or try to delegitimize those references and the work of other scholars doesn't make sense. Again the same issue with the title, I did not call the subject prince on my own, as previously mentioned 3 references referred to him as prince and one reference referred to his family as descendents of the Zengid dynasty (refer to my earlier comments). The Biography and political career references are in accordance with Wikipedia policy and are from renowned authors by renowned publishers, and are more reliable than online referencing, again please read carefully Wikipedia policy before criticizing or disagreeing with the content. --Andibernard (talk) 1:20, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Dear (Chaos) I think you are totally missing the main point. You can't just reject a reference because you don't like it personally or disagree with its content. The references I provided are in accordance with the policy of sources verifiability and reliability of Wikipedia for biographies. Please check Wikipedia: Sources.

Well Andi ... I think you too miss the point I am talking about. I began by saying if there is a title like Prince then it is not official and depend on relatives traces back to thousand of years, if we can confirm it. so I am saying concepts like royal family souldn't be applied in this case. secondly : regardless of the title... it is enough if the man has significant notable political or social contribution. but what I was discussing that even your resources couldn't mention notable work for this person. I am sorry .. but usually we are very strict inarabic wikipedia regarding biographies of living people. if a person doesn't hasn't really an significant impact o the public life or the historical politics in his country ... we couldn't consider his biography notable and eligible for wikipedia. not everything published is good and you can find alot of pblishied things which is stupid and unlogical. I think I explained my viewpoint so well so I won't comment here again --Chaos (talk) 09:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.