Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Princess Märtha Louise of Sweden

Crown princess Märtha might have the title "Princess of Sweden", but i can hardly believe that anyone in Sweden know who she was. Still, she's the king mother of Norway, and in living memory as "Crown princess Märtha". She should not be mixed up with "Märtha Louise", princess of Norway. I suggest that the content being moved to "Märtha, crown princess of Norway". Mahlum 21:21, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * don´t really see what the problem is with the title? Antares911 8 July 2005 17:56 (UTC)


 * Keep. Rename. The article should be at Märtha of Sweden, which is the reasoable place for it according to WP naming conventions. (I oppose deletion - I desire it moved to correct heading.) 217.140.193.123 12:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The Naming Conventions say: When dealing with a Crown Prince/ss of a state, use the form "{name}, Crown Prince/ss of {state}" unless there is a clear formal title awarded to a prince which defines their status as crown prince (eg, 'Charles, Prince of Wales', 'Felipe, Prince of Asturias', etc). Hence, the correct article name will be: "Märtha, Crown Princess of Norway". At least, "Louise" is incorrect from all points of view, and should be deleted to avoid confusion. Mahlum 14:07, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Strictly speaking, that means only a crown princess suo jure, such as Victoria of Sweden. And also, it may be valid to a living crown princess, cf the case of Queen Sophia of Spain. But Märtha is now dead and was a consort, different rule applies. However, as she died before her husband ascended the throne (and she was not queen consort consequently), it COULD be a twisted case. If she had been a queen consort, she will be at Märtha of Sweden unquestionably. I have made the suggestion regarding her as equivalent of queen consort - she was at least a royal consort, to whom the same rule seems to be applied quite often, if always. However, a (less than reasonable) case could be made that as crown princess consort, she should be treated like Princess Alice of United Kingdom who was grand duchess consort but never a queen, thus Märtha would be Princess Märtha of Sweden. I vote for the simpler of these two - i.e, for Märtha of Sweden. 217.140.193.123 16:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * If this is the case, then what is the meaning of: "Use the most senior title received by a royal personage." Apparently, this does not apply to consorts. But how can the consort of Harald V then become "Queen Sonja of Norway"? "Märtha of Sweden" sounds odd, anyway. As does "Princess Maud of Wales" Mahlum 01:19, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Most senior rule does not mean dead consorts (who as a whole class are a sort of exception to senior idea). Sonja is living, therefore so. Same as with Queen Sophia of Spain. Queen Maud should not have "Princess" in her heading, as she was queen consort. We can twist eternally would she better be Maud of Wales or Maud of Great Britain or Maud of the United Kingdom. 217.140.193.123 13:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Consequently, Maud was born "Princess Maud of Wales", became "Maud of Norway" when she was queen, and then "Maud of Wales" after she was dead. Have I got this right now? But what will become of Sonja when she is no longer among us? Mahlum 18:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if Sonja lives not so long as Wikipedia's this naming convention, she will be Sonja Haraldsen when pushing daisies... I think that even as widow, she will be yet Sonja, Queen of Norway (= dowager queen). Maud, if had lived when Wikipedia existed, would have been here Maud, Queen of Norway when alive. And, let me stress that Maud of Wales implies higher standing than Princess Maud of Wales as in the former, the briefness connotates that there is no need to define her further (everyone should know that she is "the" one). 217.140.193.123 19:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your guidance into Wikis's naming conventions, strange as they may seem. I wonder if they just happened to be this way, or if they are in accordance with any international standard of naming nobilty and royals. Mahlum 21:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The "dead consort" naming comes directly from academic practice of history and encyclopedias - I think otherwise it would never have gained any support here. There are practical reasons: consorts do not have ordinals. Certain first names, such as Mary, Catherine, Margaret, Louise, Isabella and Elisabeth have been very usual. Any history or encyclopedia will be in deep trouble if there are the following clearly distinct personages: Queen Margaret of Denmark, Queen Margaret of Denmark, Queen Margaret of Denmark and Queen Margaret of Denmark. (Do you have any good recipe to distinguish them from each other - using words that have been used of them preferably in their own lifetime, i.e not artificial means). 217.140.193.123 22:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I see the point. Although neither princes nor princesses have ordinals, there will be fewer cases of ambiguity with the present rules. Still, "Princess Märtha Louise of Sweden" has to be deleted, and the content moved to "Märtha of Sweden". Mahlum 07:40, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, we do not delete a good article, we move it (= keep and rename). We do not move only content (that would be called as cut-and-paste and is deeply abhorred here, as the edit history vanishes), we move the whole article. That thing which should be deleted, is the present redirect page Märtha of Sweden, so that the old page could be moved into that place as a whole. 217.140.193.123 11:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

No arguing about the principles. Still, an article with an obviously wrong entry and the possibility of bringing confusion about the identity of two different persons can't be saved. Mahlum 12:54, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

It seems that the discussants have practically reached a consensus that this bio should be at Märtha of Sweden. The discussion had been going over a week, and for a couple of recent days, there has been no comments - after sort of consensus was found. I'll remove the warnings etc, and place the article in the agreed location. Discussion (if needed) can be continued in the article's talk page, Talk:Märtha of Sweden. Arrigo 09:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)