Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Tone 09:39, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable member of former royal family which was deposed before she was born. This was deleted after a previous deletion discussion, it was re-created without a deletion review, an admin has declined a request for speedy deletion. PatGallacher (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC) (categories)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 13:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. This princess is the kind of member of a deposed royal family that Wikipedia can have an article about, because she has sought out the public spotlight for fashion modeling and been profiled in major media (Town & Country, Teen Vogue, Hello!). --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I just looked up the prior AfD, which was from 2011. At that time, the subject hadn't begun her fashion modeling career nor were there any media profiles of her cited; the article was pure genealogy. In that AfD, I recommended "delete", but I wrote: "... this deletion should be without prejudice to re-creation if she becomes notable in the future (for example, as the kind of socialite frequently featured in Vanity Fair (magazine))." Well, here she is in Vanity Fair. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:40, 26 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete There is almost no coverage, and even taking a licence and perhaps viewing the lady as a model, wouldn't cut it either. There is no coverage there either. The Vanity Fair is all passing mentions. The name is being used to push the brand, unfortunately not the person. Fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:BIO.   scope_creep Talk  10:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That is a single article, and you need multiple, independent, secondary sources that in-depth. A single article is more of the same, an indication that she is non-notable.   scope_creep Talk  10:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 01:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Per the above user's reasoning. ǁ ǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 10:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The above user's reasoning was that four different articles I cited from four different magazines were "a single article". Can you explain what made that so persuasive? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete the last discussion got this right, the sourcing does not add up to showing actual notablity.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete I don’t believe royalty, including abolished monarchies, are inherited notability and her modeling work doesn’t add up to more than about 2 sentences. Who knows if in the future that will change. Trillfendi (talk) 16:50, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep She has a strong media presence, to say the least. Articles and coverage in Vogue, | Hello Magazine, Honey, Tatler, WWD, Greek City Times, W Magazine, Insider, US Magazine, Suitcase, Vanity Fair, La Ligne, Teen Vogue, Hola, The Sun, and The Daily Express. She certainly seems to meet the criteria for at least a notable socialite, IMO. I'd like to clarify that while she is also a member of a deposed royal family, she maintains a legal status as princess in the Kingdom of Denmark, which is very-much still a monarchy. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 18:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Although as a general rule I would regard princesses as notable, in her case her position as a princess of Denmark appears to be because she is the 4-greats granddaughter of Christian IX of Denmark, not a strong claim to notability. PatGallacher (talk) 18:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While her status as a Danish princess may not establish notability, certainly the amount of coverage in the press (especially with sources like Vogue, Teen Vogue, Tatler, and W) establishes general notability. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 23:27, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep since the last deletion vote this individual has established herself as a notable model and socialite. Above users have included sources in well respected industry publications mentioning this individual. Irrespective of abolished Greek titles, she still has legal standing as a princess of Denmark, no matter how far the patriline descent from Christian IX. --Richiepip (talk) 00:02, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete: Personally, I am all for former royalty having their own Wikipedia articles as they represent a system (the monarchy) that governed the entire world for thousands of years and in some regions does to this day. But at the same time it is necessary that the article pass WP:GNG, which it does not. Firstly, the section about her fashion career in the article spans not more than four lines (one paragraph), which is the same amount of coverage her supposed romantic entanglement with Prince Harry has received, significantly bringing down its weightage. This indicates that her career as a model is still in its initial stages and nullifies the need for the article under WP:TOOSOON. Secondly, if the fact that she is present somewhere on the Danish line of succession warrants the article's existence then by the same logic, Savannah Phillips, Her Majesty's great-granddaughter who is far closer to the British throne than Princess Maria-Olympia is to the Danish one, should also get her own Wikipedia article. And even if her presence as a minor Danish princess is established, the article still fails under WP:NOTGENEALOGY. TheRedDomitor (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep She is a notable socialite and arguably more notable than her younger brother Constantine-Alexios. She has been covered in reliable sources that are not tabloid or strictly fashion. For examples, Business Insider, International Business Times, Yahoo, CNN, El Mundo, La Vangaurdia, and Kathimerini to name a few. I am sure there are other Greek news sites that ran at least one article about her. Besides, there are other articles of socialites and fashion models that mostly consist of their early life, education, marriage, family, and career. StellarHalo (talk) 06:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Keeping aside the debate on the notability of the Princess' modelling career or lack of, two wrongs don't make one right! Not singling out this discussion but generally speaking...If there are other such articles that fail to meet the GNG's then those should be put up for discussion and deleted not vice-versa. Keeping an article whose notability is questionable because there are many more like it doesn't set a very constructive precedent. TheRedDomitor (talk) 14:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: The point I was trying to make is that despite the fact that the amount of information on a socialite or fashion model's career we could write from sources is often limited to maybe a short paragraph or two, the notability of those articles was never questioned. I have not seen any factual argument that support the notion that these socialites and fashion models have no significant coverage and fail WP:GNG in face of plethora of reliable sources. StellarHalo (talk) 13:42, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete- As per nom; Not a very significant modelling career, very far down in the Danish line of succession and will never head her royal house either. Sunshine1191 (talk) 10:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment She actually is not in the line of succession to the Danish throne, as her grandmother renounced her rights when she married into the Greek Royal Family, which itself lost their Danish succession rights when, upon the implementation of female succession to the Danish throne, the line of succession was limited to descendants of King Christian X. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.110.217.186 (talk) 04:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete No significant coverage to establish notability Charmk (talk) 23:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   17:28, 3 September 2020 (UTC) — Duplicate vote: Johnpacklambert (talk • contribs) has already cast a vote above.
 * Strong Keep I'm not even sure why this is listed here?. Just a basic google search shows there are a *lot* of articles on her, including some feature articles in Vogue, Vanity Fair, Marie Claire, Times of India, New York Times, Tatler, Harpersbazarre, USmagazine, Busnessinsider.  A noted socialite, royal figure, model and fashion figure.  Wide coverage in news and other titles as well. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Well sourced article. As other has noted she is well covered as model and socialite, and she is a member of not one but two royal houses, one of which is very much extant. Iv'e added some information about her career as model and additional sources to the article. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 08:23, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. She does pass GNG: the sources provided are reliable, secondary and independent of the subject, and she's the focus of the sources, which means there's "significant coverage" as defined by GNG. Royalty and nobility fail GNG (1) when they are only mentioned in passing in sources: i.e. there's a list of descendants somewhere and they're listed there, which is a trivial mention as they are not the focus; or (2) when they are only mentioned in sources that are not reliable, or not secondary or not independent of the subject. Neither applies in this particular case. DrKay (talk) 09:43, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete even more deposed monarchy cruft.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:30, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not realy a helpfull comment - and you have allready called for delete previosly on 28 August 2020. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 23:26, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * John Pack Lambert If that's your only objection, I would note that she is a princess of the Danish Monarchy, who are very much not deposed! Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * She is still a very minor part of a monarchy, who does not actually do things in government.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:30, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's correct, that Olympia has only a minor part in the Danish monarchy, and isn't in any way involved in the politics of Denmark to my knowledge, but often I think you republicans, especially those of you who actually don't live in a monarchy, in some respects misjudge the role of the monarchy (and it's not about whether one dislike the institution of monarchy or not). Many modern monarchs, and monarchies has various subtle ways, where they directly or indirectly can influence political questions, or in some cases being a neutral arbitrator, or possessing the popularity and personal integrity that can keep some states (with internal frictions between various communities within the realm) from faling apart. And in the formal sence most monarchies are still part of "doing things in government" as we for instance can se from this picture, where the queen of Denmark is approving that her daughter-in-law, crownprincess Mary, can be granted the role as regent of the realm if such a need may occur once in a while in the future. It's interesting to see from this picture, that this is not a 'special' or 'extraordinary' meeting in the council of the Sovereign with only this one issue on the agenda, it's a quite regular meeting in the council (there have been around 600 of these meetings in the reign of the present queen of Denmark) and we can see the large number of laws in front of the queen, that needs her approval before they can enter into force (we see the primeminister to the right in the picture). Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:22, 9 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep WP:SIGCOV is met hereMaltuguom (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually it looks like, that there are a lot more sources and coverage to be found on this individual, than both the article about her and this AfD discussion reveals. It seem, that all the references so far for the article and probably also most of the searches for this discussion is based on her "full" name "Maria-Olympia of Greece", but in actual fact she dosen't use Maria privately nor professionally she just calls herself Olympia, so if you search for instance Google for "Maria-Olympia of Greece" you will only get around 45% of the results as if you searched for "Olympia of Greece" in stead. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 21:12, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The article is now updated with information on her studies at university and other personal details (including her being known by the name Olympia). Oleryhlolsson (talk) 23:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your efforts. Also searching for her using different languages will reveal many more sources as well. StellarHalo (talk) 23:28, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

*Delete Comment It has been more than 7 days (now 11days) since the relist. This is deliberately procrastinating. However, the final relist is clearly kept (all Keep and 0 delete- so clearly kept), but admin are procrastinating to close this one and her brother AfD, more than they need to. They will wait again until they get more delete votes from Anti-monarchist. So why is it still discussion for? Our time is wasted. I understand what they want so I change my vote to Delete. Be happy ကိုမေကိိုလိုး နမလိုး မအေလိူးတွေ :) . 37.111.14.243 (talk) 18:47, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep based on media coverage she passes GNG. - dwc lr (talk) 13:34, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep based on WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV - not as royalty per se. Bearian (talk) 19:40, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment A rather strange comment, especially since it's not until tomorrow (Friday 11 September 2020) that 7 days has past since the relisting of this AfD. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 19:44, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean his brother article Oleryhlolsson. Some cow 🐄 spreading the mat near the end of the match. 37.111.14.243 (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.