Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Privislinsky Krai


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Delete and redirect. Any editor wanting to argue the other article is at the wrong location is advised to start a doscussion at the article talk page if one has not already taken place. Spartaz Humbug! 08:10, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Privislinsky Krai

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This is a WP:POVFORK of Vistula Land. The WP:COMMONNAME of the region is "Vistula Land". "Privislinsky Krai" (a Russian term) gets 880 ghits, 4 Google books hits, and just 1 Google scholar hit. "Vistula Land" gets 3,310 ghits, 292 Google books hits, and 33 google scholar hits. User:Ajh1492 created this POVFORK in August 2008, and it was merged and re-directed to Vistula Land in March 2009 (after a brief revert-war). In late December 2009 Ajh1492 undid the redirect, and today redirected Vistula Land to this article. I recommend this article be deleted, then turned into a re-direct. Jayjg (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC) Ajh1492 (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete, then re-direct to Vistula Land. Jayjg (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete, pov fork. Werner Heisenberg (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, The vast majorities of the Vistula Land references on Google are WP:MIRRORS of WP. Privislinsky Krai is the proper translation from polish of Kraj Przywiślański. Vistula Land or Vistula Country are just colloquial names that should be referral entries to Privislinsky Krai. I include a number of references from relevant primary sources.
 * po upadku powstania zlikwidowano ostatnie elementy autonomii Królestwa Pol. (łącznie z nazwą), przekształcając je w "Kraj Przywiślański";
 * after the fall of the uprising last elements of autonomy of the Kingdom of Poland (including the name) were abolished, transforming it into the "Privislinsky Krai"
 * "Królestwo Polskie po powstaniu styczniowym: Nazwę Królestwa Polskiego zastąpiła, w urzędowej terminologii, nazwa Kraj Przywiślański."
 * "Kingdom of Poland after the January Uprising: the name Kingdom of Poland was replaced, in official documents, by the name of Privislinsky Krai."
 * Polish Academy of Sciences, Institute of Geographical and Spatial Organization, p. 539,
 * Rudolf Jaworski/Christian Lübke/Michael G. Müller (Hrsg.), Eine kleine Geschichte Polens. Frankfurt/Main 2000, S. 269.
 * (Original German) - ''Der westliche Teil der vom russischen Reich besetzten Territorien der ehemaligen polnisch-litauischen Adelsrepublik trug in den Jahren 1815-1864 die amtliche Titulatur Königreich Polen (Carstvo Pol’skoe) und hieß nach 1864 offiziell Weichselland (Privislinskij kraj). Nach der Niederschlagung des polnischen Januaraufstandes von 1863 vermieden die zarischen Behören jeden Hinweis auf die polnische Staatstradition. Vgl. dazu u.a. Rudolf Jaworski, Das geteilte Polen (1795-1918),
 * [Netherlands] gnatius Adversus Valentinianos?: Chronologische und theologiegeschichtliche Studien zu den Briefen des Ignatius von Antiochien, By Thomas Lechner, Published by BRILL, 1999, ISBN 9004115056, 9789004115057, 370 pages
 * p. 491
 * [Austria] Alpen-Adria-Universität Klagenfurt, Enzyklopädie des europäischen Ostens (EEO) [Encyclopedia of Eastern Europe]
 * http://eeo.uni-klu.ac.at/index.php/Polen_(Land)
 * [Slovakia] Virtuálne informačné centrum podpory slovensko-poľských malých a stredných podnikov.
 * http://vicentrum.sk/index.php?article=86
 * [German] Alltagsgeschichte der unteren Schichten im russischen Reich (1861-1914): kommentierte Bibliographie zeitgenössischer Titel und Bericht über die Forschung, By Angela Rustemeyer, Diana Siebert, Published by Franz Steiner Verlag, 1997, ISBN 351506866X, 9783515068666, 279 pages
 * [French] Il existe un dossier sur ces plaintes issues du kraj de la Vistule (kraj privislinskij), soit de l’ancien Royaume de Pologne : RGIA, f. 1290, op. 10, d. 70. Un article à propos de l’enregistrement des uniates a paru dans Sankt-Peterburgskie vedomosti, 302, 1896
 * [German] Stadt und Öffentlichkeit in Ostmitteleuropa, 1900-1939: Beiträge zur Entstehung moderner Urbanität zwischen Berlin, Charkiv, Tallinn und Triest, By Andreas R. Hofmann, Anna Veronika Wendland, Geisteswissenschaftliches Zentrum Geschichte und Kultur Ostmitteleuropas, Contributor Andreas R. Hofmann, Anna Veronika Wendland, Published by Franz Steiner Verlag, 2002, ISBN 3515079378, 9783515079372, 308 pages
 * [Austria] DEUTSCHUNTERRICHT FÜR ERWACHSENE IN DER ALTAIREGION/ WESTSIBIRIEN IM KONTEXT VON INTEGRATION UND AUSSIEDLUNG
 * http://elib.ub.uni-osnabrueck.de/publications/diss/E-Diss617_thesis.pdf
 * Popular references in Polish
 * Blogs ...
 * Polish Newspapers
 * Rzeczpospolita Polska's Archive . ..
 * Gazeta Wyborcza's Portal . ..
 * [Poland] [Catalog of the exhibition at the Museum Zamojskim, Zamość 2001]
 * [Poland] Interia.pl History Portal
 * Not that the other WP's can be used as sources, but for the sake of completeness . ..
 * PL:WP ... Kraj_Przywiślański, Historia_Polski_(1831-1914)
 * SK:WP . . . Poľsko
 * PL:WP ... Kraj_Przywiślański, Historia_Polski_(1831-1914)
 * SK:WP . . . Poľsko


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect per nom — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:07, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Merge to the English name. This is basically a naming issue. The question is whether  "Vistula Land" as an accepted English translation of  "Privislinsky Krai"  I see from Google Books that it seems to be by far the most widely used  vs.  & . (I see that most of the books that use the non-English language name use Privislianskii krai not  Privisliansky krai  --both most be used in searching, -- and I also see that some of the occurrences of Vistula Land are not for the phrase but for either ...Vistula. Land ...  in two adjacent sentences or for the use as the geographic region not the historical state. But even correcting for these, the English name by far predominates). I do not see how use in any other European language than English makes the least bit of difference.   I am furthermore unclear to what extent to POV of the article differs: it would seem to me thatthe best article would be a merge of the two.    DGG ( talk ) 23:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)


 * By that argument then Bejing should be deleted and redirected to Peking, Mumbai should be redirected to Bombay and numerous other examples. Ajh1492 (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The current English forms of those two cities are indeed Beijing and Mumbai, though other names were used in the past.  For the general rule, see  Moscow, not Moskva,    Mexico City not  Ciudad de México, The Hague not the official 's-Gravenhage.  The question has been decided in policy: Naming conventions (geographic names) says "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it." and "If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used."  In this connection, Talk:Congress Poland and WT:WikiProject_Poland/Archive 1 is illuminating==there does not seem to be all that much agreement. I not a name proposed there, Vistula Country, seems to have little support in Google books see [Vistula Country]] whjere it seems to be almost always used in the sense of " the area around the Vistula" as a general name, not for a specific period e.g. "From the thirteenth century the Germans had made their way into this Vistula country".  And, as a guideline explicating the MOS policy, WP:WikiProject Poland/Conventions says "For the naming of articles follow the advice in Wikipedia:Naming conventions policy and the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline... If there is no established usage in verifiable reliable sources in English then use Polish spelling and diacritics"  and "English usage for places within the present borders of Poland is usually the present official name of the place in Polish, but there are exceptions, such as Warsaw, the Vistula and Silesia. When a city or other place is mentioned in a historical context, if there is no common English name for it in that historical period and context, use the appropriate historical name with the current Polish name in parentheses (if it is not the same word) the first time the place is mentioned." Ajh, this question was settled comprehensively.    DGG ( talk ) 01:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ajh1492 (talk) 13:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge content to Vistula Land and delete as WP:CFORK. "Vistula land" is more common English name.DonaldDuck (talk) 03:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering this article is talking about historical events, the historical name for the time should be used. Then to be consistent the following articles need to be renamed because they are also Krais of the Russian Empire, if they aren't renamed, then the complaints are just pushing their POV . ..
 * Western Krai
 * Northwestern Krai
 * Southwestern Krai
 * Turkestan Krai
 * Amur Krai
 * Ussuri Krai


 * Not to mention Krais of Russia Ajh1492 (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.