Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Privy Councillor with responsibility for the Crown Dependencies


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. and it does not appear further input is forthcoming. The decision to keep or redirect can be handled editorially. Star  Mississippi  02:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Privy Councillor with responsibility for the Crown Dependencies

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This office does not exist as set out by the PROD tag placed by in 2016. Appears to be a misunderstanding of the wording used by primary government sources to refer to the Secretary of State for Justice AusLondonder (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. AusLondonder (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. AusLondonder (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. AusLondonder (talk) 15:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)


 * ISBN 9780853237877 page 379, written by a professor of political studies at Liverpool John Moores University who specializes in the Isle of Man, agrees with the article and not with you. A quick further search reveals one Jack Straw also disagreeing with you: "The relationship between us and the Crown Dependencies is a subtle one. They are dependencies of the Crown, they are not part of the United Kingdom, so the responsibilities I have for them are as a privy councillor." Page 20 of the same report says "For these purposes the Justice Secretary is the relevant Privy Councillor."  Historian Charles Crawley agrees: "The Privy Counsellor who is the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor is responsible for managing their relationship with the Crown,"  It's a privy councillor according to the experts, not a minister of the U.K. government.  Uncle G (talk) 21:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)


 * All members of the Cabinet of the United Kingdom are members of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom. The Cabinet is a committee of the Privy Council. The premise of this article is like creating a seperate article titled "Privy Councillor with responsibility for national security" for a role filled by the Home Secretary. What Crawley is saying is that whoever happens to be serving as Justice Secretary holds these responsibilities. AusLondonder (talk) 01:14, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
 * A better comparison would be with Lord President of the Council. Currently Mark Spencer (and until February Jacob Rees-Mogg) holds both that office, and the position of Leader of the House of Commons, and sits in Cabinet. However, Lord Present of the Council, which is a Privy Council responsibility is not part of the responsibilities of Leader of the House of Commons, and has been combined with different posts in the past (and sometimes no other post, e.g. Viscount Hailsham in the early 1960s), and has on occasion been held by someone not in the Cabinet (e.g. Andrea Leadsom). In contrast there are no "national security" responsibilities that come distinctly from the privy council, and hence the Home Secretary has no distinct responsibility as "Privy Counsellor with responsibility for national security" - all the responsibilities are part of the ministerial office. Mauls (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Secretary of State for Justice. Reading the sources, I agree with AusLondoner, this is not a position or office, it's just a description of what a different office does. A merge to Crown_Dependencies could also be appropriate. Reywas92Talk 02:47, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Secretary of State for Justice. It's not an office, it's a description of one of the roles of the SoS for Justice. Atchom (talk) 02:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. Although all secretaries of state are privy counsellors, not all privy counsellors are members of the government. This is a distinct responsibility from that of Secretary of State for Justice in the HM's UK government, and is the member of the privy counsellor responsible for advising the privy council on matters relating to the Crown Dependencies - which are not part of the United Kindom. It is wholly dissimilar to the Home Secretary's direct responsibilities for national security in the United Kindom, which are part of that ministerial portfolio.


 * If the decision is not to keep, then this should be a merge not a delete and redirect, as this material is not covered in Secretary of State for Justice.
 * Mauls (talk) 13:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd also point out that multiple secondary sources related to the constitutional affairs of the Crown dependencies are clear that it is a distinct office held by a privy counsellor, which is generally held concurrently by a member of the UK cabinet. See for example Kermode, D. G.. Ministerial Government in the Isle of Man: The First Twenty Years, 1986-2006. Isle of Man: Manx Heritage Foundation, 2008, p.173 "advised by the Secretary of State for Home Affairs in his capacity as a privy counsellor" (emphasis added); Kermode, D. G.. Offshore Island Politics: The Constitutional and Political Development of the Isle of Man in the Twentieth Century. United Kingdom: Liverpool University Press, 2001. p.379 "The UK Home Secretary in his capacity as a privy counsellor ..."; The Times Reports of Debates in the Manx Legislature. United Kingdom: n.p., 1984. p. 594 "It must be remembered that responsibility for the Island's affairs does not actually fall on the Home Office, but on the Privy Counsellor responsible for advising the sovereign on the affairs of Crown dependencies".


 * In 2001 the Government of Jersey commenced legal action against Jack Straw, then the Privy Counsellor with Responsibility for the Crown Dependencies for not submitting a law to the privy council for ratification - Straw had not done so because the UK government did not approve of the law, but the Jersey Government contested that this was an improper interference of the UK office of Home Secretary with the office of Crown Dependencies Privy Counsellor (Straw backed down and submitted the taxation law for approval, so the issue was not resolved in court.) See "A harmful delay", (2001) Jersey Law Review 5 (120)


 * Also primary sources of the Crown dependendies governments draw the distinction between the offices, c.f. https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/ID%20Law%20Officers%27%20Complaints%20Procedure%2020160805%20ALS.pdf; https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/C%20Judicial%20Independence%20Appendix%201%2020170616%20DS.pdf.


 * It could also be pointed out that responsibility for Crown dependency affairs is conversely not listed in the responsibilities of the (office of) Secretary of State for Justice: https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/secretary-of-state-for-justice


 * I have not seen any sources cited yet in support of AusLondoner's contention, which appears to be based on the misunderstanding that the position is a post in the United Kingdom government, and a fundamental misunderstanding of the constitutional relationship between the Crown dependencies and the Crown. Mauls (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   10:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   07:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added the sources mentioned by myself and Uncle G to the article. Mauls (talk) 12:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.