Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Producing Great Sound for Film and Video


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. (non-admin closure) sst ✈(conjugate) 07:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Producing Great Sound for Film and Video

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Non-notable book. No awards. Only potential basis for notability is that it's been the subject of favorable reviews. Prod declined by creating editor. TJRC (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Understood. Didn't realize my actions were seen as declining something. Additional citations and reviews were added as suggested in the notice. If those do not suffice, I understand if the page needs to be deleted. Thank you for your time. JJ1214 (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 23:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 23:24, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Updated and expanded article. Book may meet notability requirements as an academic and technical book per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(books)#Academic_and_technical_books JJ1214 (talk) 23:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm still not seeing it. Looking at the criteria there:
 * whether the book is published by an academic press: doesn't seem to be. Focal Press appears to be a commercial publisher.
 * how widely the book is cited by other academic publications...: no sign of that.
 * ...or in the media: I don't see that either. Plenty of reviews, but no citations. I checked Google Scholar, and it says 10 cites, which isn't all that much. I spot checked a couple, and they didn't pan out (for example, the cite in Single-camera video production is just one line in a list of what looks like close to 100 books in a "Futher Reading" chapter -- it's not cited for authority. Some I checked don't seem to reference it at all.
 * the number of editions of the book: Well it's on its fourth edition, so that's something.
 * whether one or more translations of the book have been published: Worldcat shows only English-language editions.
 * how influential the book is considered to be in its specialty area, or adjunct disciplines: I don't see anything in the article, or from my own (admittedly cursory) search about its influence in the field. Has the book changed how sound is recorded?
 * whether it is, or has been, taught, or required reading, in one or more reputable educational institutions: This is one area where you've documented some schools that use it. But it's not that long of a list, and every textbook is used in classrooms somewhere. I think more is needed here. Do you have anything showing it's the primary textbook in its field, with more academic market penetration than other textbooks in the same field? or that it's so authoritative it's considered effectively the one text that everyone uses?
 * What I do see here is that "Author Jay Rose is an Emmy-award winning sound professional." That doesn't make the book notable (WP:NOTINHERITED); but perhaps Rose himself is sufficiently notable to merit an article, and a that article could include a paragraph on the book.
 * Just thinking out loud here; I'm not sure Rose would pass either. In any case, I should probably shut up and have others opine. TJRC (talk) 01:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

All excellent points. Not sure I can find more but will also investigate Rose as a separate possibility. Understand if this page needs to go. JJ1214 (talk) 04:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * If this does end up closed as "delete", it might make more sense for the closing admin to WP:USERFY it to your user space to preserve it for possible transition to an article on Rose. That way you won't lose the significant work you've put into it, and can rework to an article about Rose and move it back. TJRC (talk) 23:46, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete for now at best and restart later about the book or the author himself as this is currently questionably notable for the applicable notability. SwisterTwister   talk  03:13, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  18:05, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - as the original editor I'm happy to take all the notes above and rework what I've found into something more acceptable down the line, likely about Rose as opposed to the book itself. JJ1214 (talk) 16:12, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep The WP:Book criteria discussed above are guidelines; I believe this article passes policy WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:GNG It is a university textbook, published by an academic press, and is in its fourth edition.Reliable sources including the University of Southern California,UCLA Extension,Long Island University,Fredonia State University of New York, California State University of Northbridge prove it is a university textbook. Othersources include Videomaker magazine,creative cow, millimeter magazine,San Jose Mercury News. Additional reliable sources would be ideal but I believe this passes WP:GNG as is.Atlantic306 (talk) 15:51, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.  The article notes: "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video Jay Rose (1999, Miller Freeman Books, San Francisco, CA 94105, 349pp., $40) With PBS and Turner Network Television production experience under his belt, author Jay Rose brings a wealth of experience to Producing Great Sound for Digital Video. Producing Great Sound is a manual for creating digital audio for Mac and Windows users that matches the growing capabilities of digital video and nonlinear editing systems. Rose suggests that the book will enjoy a long shelf life since, 'The techniques of good sound dont change.'  Although the price of the book is a bit steep, you get what you pay for. With over 300 pages and many illustrations, the book is replete with facts and useful information. Rose covers the physics of sound, as well as important step-by-step instructions for everything from using microphones in the studio and on location to editing voices and music. Hes even included a CD-ROM of samples, diagnostic tools and tutorials to enhance the book."  The article notes: Producing Great Sound for Digital Video (2nd Edition) 428 pages (includes CD) By Jay Rose  You have your script, a DV camera, and dozens of audio tracks available in Final Cut Pro 3. Eventually, you will get around to hiring a sound engineer, but if that's too expensive maybe you'll just save the money and do the sound yourself. Hey, it's a lot easier than lighting the set, right? Wrong. Shortchanging film sound is typical of new filmmakers, and the emphasis on picture over sound is a bias running through film schools and film publications — articles, books, and courses on visual subjects far outnumber those on film sound. Author Jay Rose is single-handedly addressing the problem.  Just released in its second edition, Rose's Producing Great Sound for Digital Video is a comprehensive introduction to recording audio on location and editing the sound in postproduction. Acoustic theory and general recording strategies are discussed alongside numerous references to current software and cameras, presumably one of the reasons why a second edition has been released so soon after the book's initial publication in 1999. Digital artists are very much hands-on, and Rose is the right man to write audio books for this new generation of filmmakers. Rose operates his own boutique sound studio and bridges the analog and digital eras — he's made the discoveries and mistakes that no one should have to learn on the job. This direct experience with DV equipment and projects is apparent throughout the book.   The article notes: "Don't call Producing Great Sound for Digital Video, Second edition by Jay Rose an audio primer or even a reference source, it's much more. In fact, it offers such a wide range of usable information about hands-on digital audio production, that by reading it, the reader is empowered with production skills and enlightened by an appreciation of how the experience of audio enriches video. It's like taking a class taught by a caring, affable, pro. Jay Rose is a master at creating new worlds of sound and in this book he walks the reader through the tools and techniques used in digital audio production for video. The book covers all phases of production from acquisition to the post production mix." There are other reviews and information at http://www.jayrose.com/book/pgs2e/WebCite such as: "Most folks who write about doing sound for moving pictures, on film or on video, focus on the sexy stuff--mostly writing music, sometimes doing foley, often talking technical. Jay Rose doesn't mess around. He digs right into the hardcore side of audio for moving pictures -- recording and editing dialog, sound effects, and music. He debunks common myths, shows the reader how to make do in limited-budget, time-constrained situations, and puts it all in context on a technical level. Producing Great Soundtracks is an invaluable collection of step-by-step how-to information combined with the technical reasons things do or don't work. It's essential reading for anyone serious about making a living doing moving pictures. -- Dominic Milano, Digital Video Magazine" </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Producing Great Sound for Film and Video to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 01:17, 15 February 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Notability (books) says: "A book is notable if it verifiably meets, through reliable sources, at least one of the following criteria: 2. The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book." The reviews in Videomaker Magazine, Millimeter Magazine, Creative COW, and Digital Video Magazine establish that Producing Great Sound for Film and Video passes Notability (books). Cunard (talk) 01:17, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * keep per being shown as meeting WP:NBOOK.  Schmidt,  Michael Q. 01:37, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.