Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Progressive Judaism (United Kingdom)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. However, the suggestion of turning into a dab page looks like a possible way forward; that, however, is clearly not a job for AfD. Black Kite (talk) 10:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Progressive Judaism (United Kingdom)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Exactly the same reasons as Articles for deletion/Progressive Judaism (Israel). A pure synthesis which means absolutely nothing. The parts relating to the relations between Reforma and Liberal Judaism in the UK can be merged into both articles. מהמברטה (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2014 (UTC) 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, j⚛e deckertalk 01:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge relevant content into Liberal Judaism and Reform Judaism (United Kingdom). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 15:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge I agree with User:Malik Shabazz - merge into Liberal Judaism and Reform Judaism (United Kingdom). --Jersey92 (talk) 00:34, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 03:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:27, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete Progressive Judaism is an umbrella term for two denominations that have their own well-developed articles, and has little notability in its own right. Debresser (talk)
 * Process suggestion. I've tried to close this several times, but can't bring myself to hit the submit button.  The problem here is that there seems to be clear consensus that a stand-alone article under this title should not exist, but I don't know how to implement Merge into .  My suggestion is to turn this into a dab page, with Liberal Judaism and Reform Judaism (United Kingdom) as the two entries.  This would leave the edit history intact, so anybody who wanted to mine the existing text for material to merge into one or the other of those targets could do so.  I'm not sure that's entirely satisfactory, so I'll just toss that out as a suggestion for discussion. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * (BTW, note that I'm the original nominator, I changed my username). I don't mind, but neither do I see a pressing concern for maintaining the edit history. There is very little valuable info in this article, and it could easily be added in a short paragraph at the two parent articles (which are filled to the brim with inconsequential details as it is; they barely cover the subject, and rather look like a compilation of press releases on various topics). There are two sub-sections titled "Reform J." and "Liberal J.", which are just leads to the respective ones, and a bit about rapprochement. The problem with all these "Progressive Judaism (X)" articles is the mess they created. There is a large Jewish current which espouses certain doctrines; it emerged in 1830s Germany, led by Abraham Geiger and his associates, and spread in various forms across the world, especially to the United States. We might call it Reform/Liberal/etc., but it's the same one. Until the 1980s, the World Union for Progressive Judaism composed solely those who shared this philosophy, and then Reconstructionist Judaism - something entirely different - joined the WUPJ. [BTW: British Reform J. lacked any serious ideological bedrock until the appearance of British Liberal J.; they believe in virtually the same things - progressive revelation and so forth - but Reform are more traditional in practice. That's all]. AddMore (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Make into disambiguation page per RoySmith's suggestion. --Bejnar (talk) 04:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep because the UK version of Progressive Judaism is unique. There were serious discussions explaining this years ago, see:
 * 1) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Progressive Judaism/Archive 1
 * 2) Talk:Progressive Judaism (United Kingdom)
 * 3) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Progressive Judaism/Assessment and more like this.
 * 4) It also seems that many of the votes in opposition to this topic are just expressions of WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT while not really researching what this topic is about and what is going on here in more depth. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 05:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I read those discussions before I began my current rampage. I don't argue that the Israeli movement deserves its own article, and it already exists. What I'm disputing is the need for a separate article for what it believes. It's belief system is based on something developed in 1830's Germany, via the influences of American and British thinkers. The people who wrote these articles stressed congregational matters, not religious ones. I doubt, from reading their comments, that they understood what separates Reform/Liberal from Conservative from Orthodox, not as "denominational" levels but in theology, philosophy, etc. There is such a thing as "Reform/Liberal Judaism", which is quite a definitive belief system. There is no such thing as a unique "Progressive Judaism" in Israel, which has any serious unique ideas of its own. German Liberal Rabbis arrived in the 1930s (that should be in the history section of the IMPJ) and all that, but they didn't create a new religious worldview. Abraham Geiger, his associates and their followers (Kaufmann Kohler in the U.S., Claude Montefiore in UK, both "Geigerists") did.AddMore (talk) 08:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * COMMENT: aka  it is unfathomable how you can admit to your "current rampage" as defining what you are trying to do here with this AfD and expect to be taken seriously. In addition to that you admit that in the middle of this complex AfD you changed your user name from "User " to "User " is also problematic because it creates confusion, or worse (just how many user names do you have and have you changed to?) and should be noted by the closing admin as such. Kindly stop your self-admitted "rampaging" and withdraw your nomination in order to regain a semblance of credibility on what is after all a very sensitive and even controversial topic. That you nominated two such articles that were originally worked out years ago after months of dialogue and co-editing, by editors who have long left WP and are not in a position to defend themselves, also does not help. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.