Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Provoke Films


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Coffee //  have a cup  //  ark  // 05:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Provoke Films

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Possible advertising/promotional entry. Article's creator and primary editors almost exclusively edit articles relating to this company and its members. On the subject of claims to notability, the first claim (regarding NAB selections) is not backed up by the link provided; in regards to Asia Voice Independent Music Awards nomination, I can frind no corroboration frm reliable sources - the provided link is dead, and the only mentions of the category claimed come from posts promotion eithre the company or the short film. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this company. Joe Chill (talk) 21:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as an advert. No rs that I can find. WildHorsesPulled (talk) 00:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep as a real fact company existence. About the first claim, the link provided backs up the nomination of the company at the National Association of Broadcaster Event in 2009. The person who claim it doesn't, seems that didn't check carefully the reel video from reelexchange.com at the link provided or doesn't truly know about the NAB Show event.
 * In regards to Asia Voice Independent Music Awards, a new link has been added that corroborates that the first music video from this company was nominated in early 2009. And again, doing a simple google search or contacting directly NAB promoters, AVIMA, or even Armada Music company, they can all corroborate the existence and work of Provoke Films Greenjeans60 (talk) 03:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - no one is arguing whether the company exists or not - the question is one of notability and/or inappropriate use of Wikipedia for advertising. While there is the possibility that one or two of the company's projects might have some notability, that does not confer equal notability on the company istelf - in fact, the new link provided about the award nomination for a video doesn't even mention Provoke Films. In fact, none of the references listed (as of this moment) mention Provoke Films even once. Only the last YouTube link in the external links section mentions the company, and only in passing in the description. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - The company is not doing any kind of advertising. We are Ciro Ayala's Official club of fans since 2008, and we have been following his works in Asia and Europe. We are not advertising or promoting anything, just providing information about his biography and projects (which they all have/had notability in Taiwan, Argentina and Europe). About the link new link provided, for ethic reasons they won't put Provoke Films or Ciro Ayala in the description, but there is mention of the music video that Provoke Films and Ciro Ayala had produced 1 year ago and for which they have been nominated and representing Taiwan for the Awards. There is even a link [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCdHlF2npFg link ] with a radio show interview for Radio Taiwan International RTI, in which Ciro Ayala and the musician artist are discussing the awards nomination in early 2009.
 * The question of notability that you are arising, is only based on personal doubt. If this is not the case, so let me know what else I can do. For us it was a long and hard work to put all the information (from 2002 to 2009) that we found about Ciro Ayala together. And again, we are not promoting or advertising anything. All the info that we are providing is based on what the newspapers in Asia and interviews on radio and TV to Ciro Ayala had provided. Greenjeans60 (talk) 14:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - You do realize that, as part of his official fan club, actively editing his article and his article only, you have a clear conflict of interest in regards to Ayala and his company? You're certainly trying to promote him and his company with these pages. I've also removed your second "keep" vote - you don't get to vote twice in this matter. Also, as a final point, your statement that all your infomation is based on information that Ayala provided gets right to the heart of the problem - you have very little in the way of significant coverage from reliable third-party and/or independent sources. If your information is based on material provided by Ayala, that's essentially a primary source, and should not be used as the basis for an article. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 16:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I didn't make the statement that, as you said, "the information is based on information that Ayala provided". That's really Untrue. I wrote the wikipedia article based on news coverage and magazines articles where this film director appears since 2002. I don't want to promote him or advertising. This person didn't have a wikipedia article and I was the first to create it. Later, I started a fans club since he's been making lots of well known music videos for Europe. So I keep thinking that your point of view of not knowing this person or his works yet, clearly makes you the wrong point of view. Secondly, I followed the guidelines that lots of people from wikipedia told me when writing the article, and there wasn't any problem until these days, when you suddenly appears (after almost 7 months of having wrote this article) and starts to make statements based on your personal opinion.
 * And finally, you didn't answer me the question of what "not trivial" link should be provided to show the notability of this film director. Greenjeans60 (talk) 20:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenjeans60 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete for lack of notability and verifiability. Neither the sources cite nor my searching cuts it.  --Glenfarclas (talk) 22:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep: the "NAB 2009 - REEL EXCHANGE Editing VFX and Animation Showcase 2009" link shows notability, along with other VFX production companies. Link Source is reliable and verifiable [ http://reel-exchange.com/members/250b0ae9/profile/5a4a0f0da826ab6647184202d826dcda/video_player.html ] The AVIMA Nominees link still lacks verifiability, but the [ http://www.arminvanbuuren.com/news/264/ AvB: Blue Fear Music Video Storyline ] from Armin van Buuren's site can be considered as notable and verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daviderudit (talk • contribs) 08:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)  — Daviderudit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment - Really? Considered notable and reliable by whom? TheRealFennShysa (talk) 17:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Considered to be removed from wikipedia by whom? I have just checked the comments and information provided by the person who wrote the article, and the links and references provided are enough facts that the company and specially his founder, has notability in Asia and Europe. Specially, 1) the link for AVIMA awards, where is very evident that one of their projects appear as being nominated for an award,2) The link to Reel Exchange.com, which is a subdivision of Millimeter Film Magazine, which is published monthly in both print and digital formats. Daviderudit (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Reel Exchange.com is "a professional networking website connecting film and video professionals with clients and collaborators in the industry." (from its About Us page) It is simply hosted by Millimeter magazine, not published by their editorial staff - it is user-generated content, so any content on that page would have been supplied by Ayala/Provoke Films, and is thus not a reliable third-party source. The AVIMA nomination list does not mention Provoke Films at all - a case could be made for the notability of the video itself, but the sources do not back that up for the company - notability is not inherited. TheRealFennShysa (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: Because I was the person who wrote the article BASED on the wikipedia guidelines that you mention, I will response one by one the criteria and requirements needed when writing this article, 8 months ago:

I. "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject": The [ http://digitalcontentproducer.com/reel-exchange/contentproducer/ciroayala/ link] is a secondary source, reliable by the fact that it's a print published American film magazine specialized in Independent Filmmakers from all over the world. That article has a bio about Ciro Ayala, which was published in August 27 2007. The article has been written and copyrighted by Millimeter Magazine.

II. "If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be needed to prove notability": The amount of links provided shows the existence of the music videos, and 2 of them (FACES and BLUE FEAR) have articles from independent sources that clarified they were directed by Ciro Ayala, produced by Liu Ming Fei, and Provoke Films.

III. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 1: The person, Ciro AYaa, has received 1 AVIMA Awards nomination for the music video Think About You in early 2009, in the category Most Mind Blowing Music Video. There is a direct link to the AVIMA awards nominees link, and the music video appears on Provoke Films Official Website with all the relevant information about the Credits and Behind The Scenes. The [ http://trainspottr.com/nosa-recordings-presents-think-about-you-the-music-video/2048 ] also provides information about the Director, Artist, Record Company and Film Producer Company. That the AVIMA link doesn't mention Provoke Films is not my problem, it's mentioning the nomination of the Music Video which was directed by Ciro Ayala, and the rest of the links, even those from the record company "Nosa Recordings", provides and sustain the rest of the information needed to show that Ciro Ayala and Provoke Films have been involved in the production of the music video. LINKS [ http://trainspottr.com/sona-nominated-for-an-avim-award/2102 ] and [ http://trainspottr.com/nosa-recordings-presents-think-about-you-the-music-video/2048 ] and [ http://voize.my/music/avima-2009-full-nominee-list-are-you-ready-for-the-biggest-indie-music-awards-in-the-world ] and [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCdHlF2npFg Interview to Ciro Ayala and Sona Musician on Radio Taiwan International RTI, about the Award Nomination]

IV. [ WP:ANYBIO ] : Point 2: The Music Video BLUE FEAR for Armin van Buuren, enters in this category, and has enduring historical record in "Trance Music" field. And all the sources and links provided clearly shows that.

V. [WP:ARTIST] : Point 3: Ciro Ayala has a significant and well-known work in TV Commercials in Asia and music videos for European artist, which have been the subject of multiple independent reviews. The Music Videos links (specially [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlD0adpJ8kg ] where you can see the Name of the Director at the beginning of the video, and is published at the Official Channel of the music artist, [Andy Moor] who was nominated for a Grammy Award in December 2008 ) clearly validate this point. Also, this music video has been broadcasted on MTV Netherlands in August 2009. Most of Ciro Ayala's works have been broadcasted on European and China/Taiwan TV Stations. And Finally, if You really follow the Wikipedia Guidelines, you should then reply me my previous question about How can improve the article if you still consider it not proper for wikipedia. Greenjeans60 (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Coffee //  have a cup  //  flagged revs now!  // 05:10, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - lack of independent reliable sources sufficient to establish notability. MikeWazowski (talk) 05:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 13:50, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is simply an attempt to promote a non-notable company. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.