Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Punchline (character)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Even several of the people arguing to keep point out that this is a character which may be notable in the future. If that turns out to be the case, it can always be undeleted. If somebody wants to work on this, ping me and I'll be happy to move it to draft space for you to work on. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Punchline (character)

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Fails WP:GNG and lacks any kind of independent notability besides Comic Book Resources and Screen Rant dominating the article. This article could be pure fancruft that is almost entirely primary sourced. Pahiy (talk) 04:39, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:02, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 06:02, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Analysis of new sources above
 * Delete – No sufficient secondary sources available to establish notability. SerTanmay (talk) 08:13, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep This nominator description is extremely misleading, to say the least. It literally says "This article lacks reliable secondary sources except for the reliable secondary sources it cites." And it lobs out the accusations of "fancruft" and "primary sources" even though there are no primary sources used and there is literally no cruft or plot summary in the article at all; it's entirely written from a real-world perspective. The article is a stub right now, which can and should be expanded in the future, but that's no reason to delete it. The article is supported by reliable secondary sources that provide significant coverage, which establish that it passes WP:GNG, and there are a plethora of other sources out there (more and more each day) not currently in the article that could be used for future expansions, including (but not limited to) the stories below my signature. — Hunter Kahn 12:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * James Tynion IV On The Origins Of Punchline – And Announcing Clownhunter For Batman #96
 * Bye Harley Quinn: 10 Ways Joker's New Girlfriend, Punchline, Is The Complete Opposite
 * Joker's New Girlfriend Punchline vs. Harley Quinn Confirmed
 * Batman: Punchline Isn't the Next Harley Quinn, She's the New [SPOILER]
 * Joker's Girlfriend Punchline Has 'Fans' Creating Their OWN Origin
 * DC Fans Are Already Cosplaying as Punchline
 * Harley Quinn Meets Joker's New Girlfriend in DC Preview
 * Thanks, I Hate It: DC Comics Is Messing up Harley & Ivy While Giving Joker a New Girlfriend
 * Delete - Neither WP:ONEEVENT nor WP:TOOSOON are technically right for this article, but they summarize my opinion pretty well anyway. The character is new. Every source is less than two months old. Give it some time and see if the character sticks. This wouldn't be the first time a new character is promoted as the NEXT BIG THING and flops. I'd be moving to draft so editors don't have to start from scratch if the character has staying power. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * By your own admission, neither of those two guidelines apply here, and a WP:CRYSTALBALL supposition that this character may or may not decline in popularity isn't a valid deletion argument either. You can feel free to nominate it for deletion again in the future if you think it's appropriate at that time, but the standard here is WP:GNG, and the simple truth is that it passes it. — Hunter Kahn 13:28, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * If any one is using a crystal ball, I believe it's you. There's no reason to assume Punchline will continue to receive this volume of coverage (or, indeed, any coverage). I linked to one example of a character that was highly promoted and temporarily traded high but failed to thrive long term. I can list more. Superhero universes are littered with duds. The current coverage is insufficient to establish lasting notability, only temporary interest in a fictional element, hence my reference to two guidelines that detail this idea without being about fictional characters specifically. I acknowledge that I could be wrong, which is why I mentioned saving this as a draft. And the simple truth is that if the character clearly passed GNG, we wouldn't be here. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:44, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm making no predictions one way or the other about the character's future popularity. I'm simply utilizing existing reliable secondary sources, the significant coverage from which show that the subject satisfies WP:GNG, and since notability is not temporary, the article does not need to pass some sort of user-imposed guideline of future "lasting notability" in order to exist. — Hunter Kahn 17:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * For context, as of this writing the character has appeared in exactly one published comic book. That's one issue of Batman out of a series with 856 numbered installments, plus annuals, miniseries, and other comics starring the character like Detective. No amount of fan press surrounding that issue's release will demonstrate notability. It's WP:ROUTINE coverage and there's no reason to assume there will be WP:LASTING effects. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Coverage in secondary sources is the guiding factor of WP:GNG, not a count of how many issues the character has appeared in so far, or will in the future. I still believe any speculation on your part about the character's lasting effects is a WP:CRYSTAL issue, but we will obviously have to agree to disagree. — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 19:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per the sources listed, which demonstrate notability, at least at this point. I think the dueling crystal balls can be set aside for now. The character may grow in popularity and continue, or not. We can re-evaluate whether there's WP:SUSTAINED coverage after some time has passed. -- Toughpigs (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, SUSTAINED is a more applicable link than the two I previously listed. I'll keep that in my back pocket for the future. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I think there is technically enough to satisfy GNG; however, I don't think that necessarily means a standalone article is necessary (or desirable). I'll defer that to potential merge discussions down the line outside AfD, though.  I would like to point out, though, that (character) might not be the best disambiguator per this article about additional characters and publications.  Consider moving it to Punchline (DC Comics) per WP:NCC.  While you could argue that the other two characters don't have a Wikipedia page dedicated to them, it would still probably be cleaner and still conform to WP:NCC.  I personally interpret WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as being more applicable to cases of dropping a parenthetical disambiguator (which doesn't apply here). This was also an interesting read and seems to support Argento Surfer's concerns, but time will tell, I suppose.  Joker's Daughter did end up with a page (for better or worse... I don't actually know). -2pou (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Draft or redirect to some applicable list. The sources above are a bunch of low-weight topical pop-culture dribble for the most part. It's not like they cannot be used, but they shouldn't be the core of an article. CBR shouldn't be used at all in my opinion after reading some of their listicles that clearly show they have no editorial oversight going by how much they get wrong or just plain make up. TTN (talk) 17:01, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * CBR experienced a big drop in quality after being sold in 2016. Aside from reviews and anything by Brian Cronin, I no longer find them reliable. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:25, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete. Interesting. I would have expected the article to be much longer and fancrufty, but the sources are actually better than for many lengthy pieces of fancruft. Still, there is not much outside of WP:PLOT, a bit about people cosplaying as her and such. No real reception, significance, or any hint of scholarly analysis. WP:TOOSOON, if you can say so about a comic book character. Maybe we can have a good article about her in few years if she becomes more famous, maybe gets portrayed in the Joker sequel or such? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:16, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment A few other new sources available about this character, beyond those identified above and featured in the article, can be found below. — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 17:21, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Inside BATMAN's Breakout New Character PUNCHLINE (And the Coming of CLOWNHUNTER)
 * Batman Writer Clears Up Punchline's First Appearance Confusion
 * Punchline: Janín Art Reveals a Piece of Joker's New Girlfriend's Origin Story
 * Chaos DC: Punchline debuts in 3 different comics, the author: "My fault, let's make order"
 * PUNCHLINE Drives BATMAN #89, YEAR OF THE VILLAIN: HELL ARISEN #3, NIGHTWING #70 Third Printings
 * Joker's New Girlfriend Punchline Will Make a BIG Impact in Gotham
 * Batman: Punchline Co-Creator Debunks Transgender Villain Rumor

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <b style="color: black">Night</b><b style="color: black">fury</b> 10:08, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd say they have the same problem of being overly-topical and really just inheriting notability from the Joker. It's certainly reasonable to think that the character will end up truly notable down the line simply due to being around such a major character, but it belongs on a list until then. TTN (talk) 12:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Let this page stay. This is a rising character here. We just need to develop the page to make it better. --Rtkat3 (talk) 18:05, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak delete Yes, the notability could go either way in the near future. But I'm leaning on the side of WP:TOOSOON, as per Piotr Konieczny above. Cheers, 1292simon (talk) 06:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.