Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qahr and ashti


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Ostracism. Consensus is that this form of ostracism does not merit a separate article.  Sandstein  13:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Qahr and ashti

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I don't think this worth to have a dedicated entry on an encyclopedia, if it some kind ostracism, I guess it is better to be merged to that. −ebrahimtalk 20:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Response by Isobel Chaveh:

Qahr & ashti is not ostracism, qahr is an Iranian social behavior, a ritualized custom of avoidance towards a family member to let him or her know that he or she needs to change a certain behavior. Once the behavior has been changed to satisfaction, then ashti (forgiveness) can be enacted.

Iranians do not sit down & discuss family problems the way Americans do - they play nonvocalized behavior games like qahr, taarof and "Face"

Taarof, another Iranian social behavior, has its own separate page.

Face (sociological), a social behavior, is another separate Wikipedia article that has entries of the different "Face" behaviors of several countries, including Iran. "Face" is the primary social behavior of Islamic cultures.

Another page, Culture of Iran, does not address social behavior at all; this is not a good page to incorporate Iranian customs of social behavior such as qahr, taarof & "face".

Ostracism is an ancient Roman-based form of legal punishment - banning an individual from his hometown for a prescribed number of years - this custom was carried over into the Middle Ages, Dante was ostracized from Florence for 10 years.

Today, ostracism is a public form of avoidance & condemnation of an individual or of a group.

Qahr, on the other hand, is designed to be played within a family setting only; it is shockingly bad manners to publicly ostracize anyone, or to let anyone outside the family be aware than an individual is being shown qahr.

Ashti (forgiveness) is a component of the social behavior called "Qahr & Ashti". There is no forgiveness with ostracism.

Therefore, merging Qahr with Ostracism would lead to misconceptions that they are different names for the same behavior - they are not. Ostracism is very public & all are encouraged to join in the shunning; qahr is very private & kept hidden from all outside the family.

Qahr can be a form of psycholgical abuse by a perpetrator towards a victim; different forms of similar psychological abuse such as silent treatment, shunning, Isolation Techniques (Individual), snub, & Isolationism, & ostracism all have separate pages on Wikipedia. Isobel Chaveh (talk) 14:04, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 00:48, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge into Shunning per Isobel's rationale, though I'm not sure that was their intent. '''- Je rg li ng ''' PC Load Letter 20:11, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Response by Isobel Chaveh:

Iran is not a religion, it is a country, so this article cannot be merged into Shunning. Qahr is an Iranian cultural custom, it is not a religious concept. Unless someone writes an article about sociological concepts of Iranian social customs, or psychological aspects of the Iranian class system, this article needs to remain a stand-alone encyclopedic subject Isobel Chaveh (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 06:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Just following up from my watchlist: No, we don't need a separate article about Iranian shunning just because it has a local name. It's still fundamentalist shunning; it's still studied and described in the same way, which is confirmed by your sources. '''- Je rg li ng ''' PC Load Letter 18:28, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge into Ostracism per WP:ATD-M. Taking user:Isobel Chaveh's arguments that this is a specific societally-bound and not religious cultural practice at face value, it still doesn't demonstrate a reason for a standalone article.  Specific cultural variations within an ancient custom (which it apparently is) can be easily accommodated within the article on the generalized topic. This linguistic formulation may well be worth a redirect to a section of the larger article.  Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:00, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.