Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ra mes ses


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete.  Kurykh  23:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Ra mes ses

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

The article as it currently stands appears to me to be incoherent and rambling, as well as being written in a non-encyclopedic tone, providing no encyclopedic value. It might qualify for speedy, but others feel it does not; it is being actively edited. Matchups 02:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete: This article is largely covered by a much better written Avaris. In addition, the odd spelling of the name is not really supported. JodyByak, yak, yak 03:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep: In Exodus Ramesses was one of a pair of treasure cities or emporia and the first station of the Exodus. In the story there are two treasure cities; one Pithom in the Delta and a second Ra mes ses at Thebes.
 * Comment: 1. While Avaris was a Hyksos city it was never a treasure city or emporia.
 * 2. In the article on Avaris the Etymology of the name is given thus Exodus Decoded, a made-for-TV documentary by Simcha Jacobovici reported an unlikely etymology for the place name Avaris (Hatwaret/Auaris), suggesting the place name derives from the Hebrew word for "Hebrew" (Hebrew: עִבְרִי, Tiberian:, Israeli: Ivri). If so, it would mean something like the place of the Hebrews, and thus identify the Asiatic Hyksos with the biblical Hebrews. Nevertheless, while a Canaanite/Hebrew origin is plausible, it is difficult to show how the Canaanite/Hebrew word-root ' (עבר), meaning "to pass" (whence a "Hebrew", a "passer-by", one who "goes across"), could linguistically become ' in Egyptian.
 * 3. Avaris was not built during a period of Dynastic change which threatened war. The story mentions treasure cities or emporia and dynastic change.
 * 4. A better candidate for the southern emporia is Pithom. In the geo-political context of Egypt this is an important element of the story which correlates well with the Hyksos removal from Egypt both in time and place. "Exodus 1:7-14 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land. Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Ramesses. But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour: And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour."
 * 5. Ra mes ses is Station number 1. of the Exodus. Its near the Capital of Egypt which in the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt was Thebes. Exodus station number 6. is Thebes port of Elim.
 * 6. Using the Egyptian spelling of Ra mes ses rather than the English transliteration just points out that in Egyptian its three words, each of which has meaning. Ra mes ses means literally(Ra=sun), (mes=birth), (ses= to guard or observe), the place of observing the birth of the sun, the dawn in the east. During the entire history of Egypt the Red Sea was an important source of the materials used in the mortuary at Karnak. Later in the story, Karnak was where Moses would have gone to get the bones of Joseph "Exodus 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you."
 * 7. The Exodus takes place 480 years before the 4th year of the reign of Solomon or 1354 BC
 * 8. The Exodus takes place in the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt before Avaris is built
 * 9. The Exodus does not take place in the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt after Avaris is built
 * 10. Avaris is built almost half a millenia later than the date given in the story
 * 11. The geo-political context for Avaris comes after the events of Joshuah and Judges
 * 12. Avaris is in the wrong place at the wrong time to fit the data given in the story.
 * 13. The story talks about crossing the Red Sea.
 * 14. The place of crossing the Red Sea for Egyptians was Thebes Red Sea Port of Elim
 * 15. Crossings of the Red Sea from Elim go back to the 12th dynasty
 * 16. This is documented by the 12th dynasty "Tale of the shipwrecked sailor"
 * 17. In the Twelfth dynasty of Egypt voyages south from Thebes across the Red Sea to Punt are mentioned.
 * 18. In the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt Hatshepsut kept a Red Sea fleet at Thebes
 * 19. Hatshupsets fleet regularly crossed the Red Sea to get mortuary goods for Karnak.
 * 20. If Ancient Egypt isn't something you have studied intensively there may be some confusion about what is a treasure city. A treasure city or emporia is a port where foreign traders can bring their goods through customs.
 * 18. In the 19th century archaeologists made speculations about San el-Hagar or Pi-Ramesses and Tell el-maskhuta or Pi-Athom being the places mentioned in the story of the Exodus. These have since been corrected by trained Egyptologists, but the myths have lived on among "biblical archaeologists" and laypeople. See: Baines and Malek,1987, Atlas of Ancient Egypt, Equinox, ISBN 0-87196-334-5 Pi-Riamsese 166,175,177, removal of capital to, 46, 84, 166.
 * 21. Under San el-Hagar"...the temple is a mass of inscribed and decorated blocks, columns, obelisks and statues of various dates, some of them even bearing the names of rulers of the old and middle kingdoms (Khufu, Khepren, Teti, Pepi I and Pepi II, Senwosret I), However the majority of the inscribed monuments are connected with Ramesses II and this led P. Monet, the greatest expert on the Tanis monuments to believe this was the site of the ancient Pi-Ramesses, the delta capital of the Ramesids. Nevertheless none of the buildings so far excavated can be shown to have been built before the reign of Pausanes I of the Twenty-first dynasty of Egypt and the inescapable conclusion therefore is that all the ramessid and earlier monuments must have been brought from other places."
 * 22. Under Tell el-maskhuta"In 1883 E. Neville excavated a large brick built enclosure (some 210 x 210 m) with a badly damaged temple at Tell el-maskhuta, in wadi tumilat. (In the late period a canal through this wadi enabled ships to sail from the Nile into the Red Sea) Most scholars, though not all, identify Tell el-maskhuta with ancient Egyptian Tjeku and Pithom, (probably from per-Atum, The 'Domain of Athom') of the Exodus and the capital of the Eighth Lower Egyptian nome."
 * 23. Pithom is an ancient city in Egypts delta. Its mentioned in Exodus as a treasure city in the same breath as Ramesses. You would have to know that from the Hyksos period onward there are emporia in both the delta and Thebes. In the delta, cities like Sais served as "Treasure cities" business or banking centers. At Thebes, Elim on the Red Sea and Ra mes ses also served as a business or banking center for the Red Sea trade in Frankincense, Myhr, Bitumen and perfumes and ointments such as ben jamin or juniper oil used at Karnak's mortuary temples.
 * 24. Pithom and Rameses are located at opposite ends of the kingdom. Pi-Athom is an ancient nome capital (see below) in the delta.
 * 25. Following the stations list, the Exodus crosses the Red Sea between Elim and Elat. Elim, the sixth station, is Thebes Red Sea port. Elat, the ninth station is at the head of the gulf of Aqaba. There are no stations in the Sinai. The Exodus is dated to the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt and not the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt The route from Egypt to Elat across the Sinai doesn't exist.
 * 26. The term "Red Sea" is Greek (Erythrian Sea) not Hebrew. The term "Yam Suph" or reed Sea is speculation on speculation. The Pharoah of the Exodus is not Ramesses, thats another speculation.
 * 27. Viewed in the context of the story Ra mes ses is near
 * 28. In Egyptian Succoth means the place of entering the darkness, thats a term for the tombs placed at Karnak. The idea of ra mes ses is that reincarnation is like the cycle of the sun. One dies and enters the darkness like the setting of the sun in the west. (Karnak is on the west bank of the Nile). Then one passes through the underworld as the sun sails in its sekhert boat through the night sky and is reborn in the dawn of the sun in the east.
 * 29. The article on Avaris may be fine for some purposes but its definitely wrong for defining a station of the Exodus. Rktect 13:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 29. The article on Avaris may be fine for some purposes but its definitely wrong for defining a station of the Exodus. Rktect 13:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete: This seems pretty close to the heart of original research. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: You must be confused. The original research is in the speculations about Avaris which are contrary to the cited material from Baines and Malek and other Wikipedia sources. In the article on Avaris the Etymology of the name is given thus Exodus Decoded, a made-for-TV documentary by Simcha Jacobovici reported an unlikely etymology for the place name Avaris (Hatwaret/Auaris), suggesting the place name derives from the Hebrew word for "Hebrew" (Hebrew: עִבְרִי, Tiberian:, Israeli: Ivri). If so, it would mean something like the place of the Hebrews, and thus identify the Asiatic Hyksos with the biblical Hebrews. Nevertheless, while a Canaanite/Hebrew origin is plausible, it is difficult to show how the Canaanite/Hebrew word-root ' (עבר), meaning "to pass" (whence a "Hebrew", a "passer-by", one who "goes across"), could linguistically become ' in Egyptian.Rktect 18:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per above; and quite aside from anything else, the rambling defense of the article is largely a cut and paste from the article's text itself. Honestly, we can (and should) read the article in situ.   RGTraynor  18:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: In what way is it rambling to categorically list the factual discrepancies that this Avaris speculation would have with other Wikipedia articles on Egypt? The article on Avaris is not supported by any facts of its own. The premis that the Exodus began at Avaris contradicts all the known data and is simply not possible to make agree with the rest of the story. It didn't exist in the proper time frame. Its simply the wrong place. Rktect 18:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: The Avaris article contains nine inline citations and three text sources. Whether you agree or not with the article's assertions is outside the scope of the AfD process, but Wikipedia is not a soapbox.  Are there any policy grounds you'd like to cite in defense of this article?    RGTraynor  19:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: With all due respect; the article proposed to be deleted is about a station of the Exodus, a textual artifact. Its proposed that it be replaced by an article on Avaris. The Avaris article is about a city of the Hyksos. Avaris was built c 1628 BC. The 18th dynasty was built on the defeat of the Hyksos c 1550. The Exodus c 1350 comes along a couple of centuries after the city was destroyed. Another century later c 1250 a new city was built there. See the problem? Avaris has nothing whatsoever to do with the Exodus. The reason the article on the 1st station of the Exodus shouldn't be deleted is that its fact checked rather than speculative and based on citations from Baines and Malek on the archeology, chronology, and history of Egypt and from the Book of Exodus regarding the textual artifacts. The only reference in the Avaris article that touches on the Exodus is a speculation from a TV show which the article disputes the accuracy of.Rktect 21:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Some people may not understand what a textual artifact is. In the 1980's Kenneth Kitchen began to look at the form of contracts, the price of slaves, and other references in a story to facts that could be checked in a geo-political, historical or archaeological context and use the correlations for dating purposes.Rktect 21:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete: User:Rktect has a long history of disruption and OR, this article is just more of the same. It's a shame that Requests for arbitration/Rktect only banned him from weights and measures articles, as now he's gone on to this.  Corvus cornix 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete Only one source is cited, and it's an atlas. Phrases like "If Ancient Egypt isn't something you have studied intensively..." advertise OR with giant, blinking neon signs and an eight page insert in the Sunday paper. Caknuck 05:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong keep Every biblical place name is independently notable, whether or not it can be securely identified. there have been thousands of years of sources discussing and annotating every one of them. The article has only one, and not a very good one. But there is also brief information in the Catholic encyclopedia (article Biblical Geography "Ramesses (Genesis 47:11; Lower Egypt). The site has not yet been identified; some see it in San, the Tanis of the ancients; others in Es-Salihîeh."  Their article on Tanis  treats it as a separate city. Dont confuse a confusing article with a non-notable subject. Keep and edit and supplement with proper references. DGG (talk) 07:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As noted by JodyB, conventional wisdom is that this is the same place as Avaris, and Pi-Ramesses (listed on the Ramesses dab page) redirects there. No additional article is needed for this peculiar spelling. Matchups 14:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment:Respectfully, if what passes for conventional wisdom is sourced to the speculations of a TV show thats a problem. The article should be kept for four reasons.
 * 1. It explains where the speculation of this "conventional wisdom" originally comes from, why the speculation is wrong and has long since been corrected, and sources that with a well respected Atlas of archaeological sites in Egypt.
 * 2. The article references Wikipedia articles that further explain its role as an emporia, as an important place in Thebes, links it to the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt and theNineteenth dynasty of Egypt, links it to Thebes port of Elim, and to the mortuary business and burials at Karnak
 * 3. It discusses the etymology of its name with references to Gardiner's ""Egyptian Grammar"" and Faulkner's "Middle Egyptian".
 * 4. It was suggested for deletion by an aliased individual whose been systematically removing content from articles about ancient Egypt with 30 such blanks on August 5th alone[] some of which is apparently being corrected by a bot.

ClueBot (Talk | contribs) (Reverting vandalism, by  User:209.244.42.97  (see here). If this is a mistake, report it. Thanks, ClueBot. (Bot)) Newer edit →
 * The previous unsigned post was from User:Rktect
 * I am the user who suggested this article for deletion; please see the top.
 * I am not an anonymous user (I think that's what the previous poster meant by "aliased").
 * I have not removed content from any articles about ancient Egypt.
 * From my research on 209.244.42.97, it appears that only one change was reverted by a bot, and the bot's author agrees that it was an error. It also appears that this anonymous user is primarily making changes to remove or clean up original research which Rktect has added to a great many articles.
 * Matchups 18:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * From the user talk page of User:209.244.44.97 under Kadesh - Please stop. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, you will be blocked from editing. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry, but you have received 3 warnings prior to mine recently. According to Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace#Multi level templates, you are at Level 4, which is "Assumes bad faith; strong cease and desist, last warning". I'm actually nice to give you a warning suitable for level 3. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[1], [2], [3]. Warning stack up even if it's handed out by different users. OhanaUnitedTalk page 19:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * User:209.244.42.97 Diffs for POV reverts on a single article list of stations for the Exodus

WP:3RR, WP NPOV, WPZ:RV V, and vandalism for blanking content
 * 16:42, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (removed probably wrongly added template) (top)
 * 16:41, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (added correct template syntax)
 * 16:40, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (removed template in which its content is covered in other templates)
 * 16:39, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (added disputed template and OR template due to comments on the talk page)
 * 16:37, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (removed unneeded syntax)
 * 16:37, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Red Sea - Exodus station (Reverted additions of OR, POV content, and inaccurate and misleading information and maps created by user who added them + added basic info + rmd uneeded spaces + wikified a little + added templates)
 * 16:32, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Ra mes ses (again modified delete template)
 * 16:29, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Ra mes ses (reverted own mistake)
 * 16:29, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Ra mes ses (tweaked delete template)
 * 16:28, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Ra mes ses (added delete template)
 * 16:26, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Etham (Reverted POV and vandalization of article + removed inaccurate map which was created by the user who added it) (top)
 * 16:25, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Rhind Mathematical Papyrus (→Influence of the RMP - added OR. template) (top)
 * 16:24, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Pi-hahiroth (→External links - removed improper syntax) (top)
 * 16:23, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Pi-hahiroth (added template due to the fact that I forgot to add it)
 * 16:22, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Pi-hahiroth (edited section name for a more transwikipedian uniformity +corrected bad referencers +moved section to more suitable location + removed errant spaces + added unref. template +added ORsection template)
 * 16:18, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Wilderness of Sin (Removed another unneeded space) (top)
 * 16:17, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Wilderness of Sin (→Notes and citations - Removed unneeded spaces + renamed section to a uniformed transwikipedia style.)
 * 16:16, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Wilderness of Sin (Reverted additions of POV + inaccurate map created by the user who added it.)
 * 16:15, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Pi-hahiroth (Added unref. template)
 * 16:15, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Pi-hahiroth (Reverted addition of inaccurate map made personally by the same user.)
 * 16:13, August 5, 2007 (hist) (diff) Elim (Bible) (another unneeded space removed) (top)


 * The sole purpose of this string of edits was to POV revert and blank the content from the list of stations

'''This unsigned comment was obviously added by User:Rktect. Please sign and date all comments. Matchups 01:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)'''
 * Comment: I don't want to get into a debate about another user's actions here, as it is not germane to this discussion. However, if you do wish to contribute constructively to such discussions in he future please include actual diffs, not just screen scrapes, so that anyone reading it can judge for themselves whether the change is, e.g., "blank the content" or "added unref. template."Matchups 01:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: User:Rktect. First, I'm sure no one concerned with this proposed deletion discussion really agrees that you should be posting that kind of stuff here. Secondly, if you think that "The sole purpose of this string of edits was to POV revert and blank the content from the list of stations", then I'm certainly fine with your biased assumption, and im not going to discuss it here because its not the place.209.244.42.97 21:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete this does not appear to be the most widely accepted location for the city that the Israelites worked on, and thus violates WP:NPOV. The statement in Avaris that it was the place mentioned in the Exodus is not referenced to a TV programme but to a recent book by respected Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen. In addition and  confirm that Pi-Ramesses was the city referred to in Exodus. The article also says that there have been "speculations about San el-Hagar or Pi-Ramesses" being the city referred to in Exodus. However, San el-Hagar is the modern name for Tanis, not Pi-Ramesses, and Tanis has also been proposed as a (now rejected) candidate for the Exodus, so I am not even sure that the one source cited has been interpreted correctly. The title "Ra mes ses" may well need to redirect somewhere though. Hut 8.5 17:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep historically there has not uniform acceptance of the identification of Ramesses with Avaris; scholarship in the 19th century tentatively identified Ramesses with either Heroopolis (modernly identified with Biblical Pithom) or the Heliopolis of the Heliopolite nome (now usually identified with Biblical "On"). See, e.g., William Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, s.v. "Raamses", a spelling adopted from the references in Exod. i. 11, xii. 37; Numb. xxxiii. 3, 5. Carlossuarez46 19:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete: Very much explained at the article on Avaris, which i see that User:Rktect has started to edit after it being brought to his attention. 209.244.42.97 20:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Ramesses. This article seems to violate WP:NOR. Stifle (talk) 21:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: "At least as early as Eusebius of Caesarea, Ramesses II was identified with the pharaoh of whom the Biblical figure Moses demanded his people be released from slavery. This identification has often been disputed, though the evidence for another solution is likewise inconclusive"


 * "Critics point out that ...The dates now ascribed to Ramesses' reign by most modern scholars do not match the internal biblical chronology regarding the date of the Exodus, and the now commonplace view is that the Pharaoh mentioned is not Ramesses. In the 1960s and 1970s, several scholars such as George Mendenhall[37] associated the Israelite's arrival in Canaan more closely with the Hapiru mentioned in the Amarna letters which date to the reign of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten and in the Hittite treaties with Ramesses II."


 * "Ramesses II's late 13th century BC stela in Beth Shan mentions two conquered peoples who came to 'make obeisance to him' in his city of Raameses or Pi-Ramesses but mentions neither the building of the city nor, as some have written, the Israelites or Hapiru'.[38] The Bible states that the Israelites toiled in slavery and built 'for Pharaoh supply cities, Pithom and Ra'amses' in the Egyptian Delta.[39] The latter is probably a reference to the city of Pi-Ramesse Aa-nakhtu or the 'House of Ramesses, Great-of-Victories'--i.e. ancient Pi-Ramesses (modern day Qantir) --which had been Seti I's summer retreat.[40]"


 * "Ramesses II greatly enlarged this city both as his principal northern capital and as an important forward base for his military campaigns into the Levant and his control over Canaan. According to Kenneth Kitchen, Pi-Ramesses was largely abandoned from c.1130 BC onwards; as was often the practice, later rulers removed much of the stone from the city to build the temples of their new capital: Tanis.[41] ..."


 * "This prompts one to remember that the books of Joshua and Judges both paint pictures of the Israelites as tribes acting independently or in small coalitions against their enemies and wonder how fast they could have coalesced to the point where an ancient and mighty nation such as Egypt would consider them worth mentioning."


 * "Ron Wyatts hypothesis The Hebrew Exodus When? about 1500 B.C. Collateral source: Expulsion of of Hyksos (lived around Avaris, Egypt aka: Tell el-Dab'a) in Egyptian documents & wall paintings. Joseph's court seals have even possibly been found in Avaris. Also, A 'cry out' to 'L', one of the first letters indicating the Hebrew God has been found inscribed on Egyptian walls. Avaris is also the location of Rameses, the place where the Israelites settled (Genesis 47:11) and where they departed from (Exodus 12:37)."


 * There are a lot of problems with basing Wikipedia articles on the Speculations of Ron Wyatt, Diodorus Sculus Josephus and Mantheo. By Wikipedia standards almost all research on the Exodus is WP:OR and POV. It would be good to gradually edit out the ancient speculation, tourist hype and bad source material and just stick with the archaeological data. Generally the most recent archaeological data finds nothing in the Sinai but quite a bit at Timna north of Elat


 * Perevolotsky and Finkelstein on the absence of archaeological evidence for an Exodus presence in the Southern Sinai-"'In recent years archaeological research in the Sinai peninsula has burgeoned as never before. Intensive surveys and excavations have been carried out in all regions of the peninsula, and what was once a remote and mysterious region has become, archaeologically speaking, well known and relatively understood."


 * "All this archaeological activity, however, has contributed almost nothing to our understanding of the Exodus. This is true despite the fact that the Bible describes the wanderings of the Israelites at great length and even provides us with a long list of place-names where the children of Israel encamped during their wanderings (Numbers 33). But, so far, no remains from the Late Bronze Age (15th-13th centuries BC- the period in which these events were supposed to have taken place) or even from the subsequent Iron Age I have been found anywhere in the whole Sinai peninsula, except for archaeological evidence of Egyptian activity on Sinai's northern coastal strip. Accordingly, no progress has been made in locating the Israelite encampments, in identifying their route, or in fixing the site of Mt. Sinai.' (p.28. Aviram Perevolotsky & Israel Finkelstein, 'The Southern Sinai Exodus Route in Ecological Perspective.' Biblical Archaeology Review. July-August 1985, Vol. XI, No.4)"


 * "Rosen 'The virtual absence of remains from the Middle Bronze or Late Bronze Ages in this area [the Lower Negeb] and the rest of the Negeb contradict the 38 year Israelite settlement recounted in Exodus. Similar problems attend virtually all attempts to identify specific sites (especially Mt. Sinai) in the Central Negeb with places mentioned in Exodus.' (p.1064, Vol. 4. Steven A. Rosen, 'Negeb.' David Noel Freedman, Editor. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York. Doubleday. 1992. 6 vols. )"


 * "Dever :'The Sinai Tradition...All we can say is that recent extensive exploration of the entire Sinai by Israeli archaeologists, geologists, and others has turned up virtually no Middle Bronze/Late Bronze presence in the Central or South Sinai. Our current detailed knowledge of this remote and hostile area calls into question the biblical tradition of a million-and-a-half or more people migrating there (Nu 11:21) for some 40 years (De 2:7). The barren terrain and sparse oasies might have supported a few straggling nomads, but no more than that.' (Vol. 3, p. 547. Willam G. Dever, 'Israel, History of, Archaeology and the Conquest.' David Noel Freedman, Editor. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York. Doubleday. 1992. 6 vols. )"


 * "Romer, a British Egyptologist, also noted the absence of any evidence in the Sinai for Moses' Israelites (600,000 warriors, or one and a half million souls)-Romer 'Hard evidence of the Exodus event in the preserving deserts of the Sinai, where most of the biblical wandering takes place, is similarly elusive. Although its climate has preserved the tiniest traces of ancient bedouin encampments and the sparse 5000-year-old villages of mine workers, there is not a single trace of Moses or the Israelites; and they would have been by far the largest body of ancient people ever to have lived in this great wilderness.' (p.58, 'Genesis.' John Romer. Testament, The Bible and History. New York. Henry Holt & Co. 1988. ISBN 0-8050-0939-6)"


 * "Historian Diodorus Siculus, about 10 B.C. described the Sinai Peninsula in his Library of History wrote, 'Moreover, an altar is there built of hard stone and very old in years, bearing an inscription in ancient letters of an unknown tongue. the oversight of the sacred precinct is in the care of a man and woman who hold the position for life.' (Bk. 3, sect. 42, Loeb Classical Library, C.H. Oldfather, trans. [Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1993], p.211)" More recent research has shown there was a western semitic culture in the Negev but that it was totally unrelated to the Exodus. At Serebit el Khadim there were turquoise mines


 * "Josephus in Josephus Against Apion. I, 26, 27, 32 mentions two Egyptian priest-scholars: Manetho and Cheremon who in their histories of Egypt specifically named Joseph and Moses as leaders of the Jewish race. Josephus states that Manetho and Cheremon stated that the Jews rejected Egypt’s customs and gods. They noted that the Jews practiced animal sacrifices which they witnessed on the first Passover." Like archaeologists their speculations are about as likely to be right as wrong only problem is that if Diodorus Siculus was the Zachariah Sitchen of his time, then Josephus was the Graham Hancock.


 * The speculation continues "These historians also confirmed that the Israelites migrated to 'southern Syria' which was the Egyptian name for Palestine. They also mentioned that Israel’s exodus occurred during the reign of Amenophis who was the son of Rameses and the father of Sethos who reigned toward the close of the 18th dynasty which places the Israelites exodus between 1500 and 1400 BC. This confirms the Old Testament’s chronology for the Exodus occurring in 1460 BC."


 * "In 1761, Barthold Niebuhr, a German explorer, found a huge cemetery with tombs and a sepulcher atop an inaccessible mountain called Sarbut-el-Khaden. Inscriptions were found on the tombs and inside the sepulcher. (Voyage en Arabie, tom. i. p. 191). Niebuhr offered his doubts that the inscriptions were made by Egyptians as no carved inscriptions were ever found in Egypt; rather they were partial to painting images on plaster. He also found legible inscriptions not only on the tombs but also within a small temple carved out of rock, all found to be of the same written language as the Hebrew Exodus inscriptions. In another book, Niebuhr remarked 'the wonderful preservation of the inscriptions upon this soft sandstone, exposed as they have been to the air and weather during the lapse of so many ages. On some of the stones they are quite perfect' (Niebuhr, Biblical Researches, vol. i. pp. 113-114). He found, as in the other Sinai inscriptions, that the hieroglyph-like writings were significantly different in form from Egyptian hieroglyphics, yet sharing similarities nonetheless. Also, no mention of Egyptian gods or common Egyptian symbols are to be found in the mountain-top graveyard. In addition to all of this, Niebuhr found numerous engravings of quails on the tombstones 'standing, flying and apparently, even trussed and cooked' (Rev. Charles Forster, Sinai Photographed [London: Richard Bentley, 1862], p. 62) and noted that the Bedouins refer to this graveyard as the 'Turbet es Yahoud' (grave of the Jews)." Rktect 12:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. Rambling and unsourced. Appears to be original research. I object to the article creator adding inappropriate and excessive material to the AfD itself, and suggest that an administrator warn him about it. The added material is close to being deletable from this AfD per WP:REFACTOR, as 'Superfluous - Content that is clearly and unmistakably irrelevant.' EdJohnston 03:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Procedural question about this AfD: I invite the other participants in the AfD to give their opinions whether all of Rktect's numbered items and blockquoted material should be moved to the Talk page of the AfD. EdJohnston 03:20, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No. I agree that the material doesn't belong here.  But this is not an encyclopedia article and doesn't have to be pretty; no server space is saved by moving it.  And the next time there's an WP:RFAR regarding his contributions, it will be easier to see what's going on if everything is kept in one place. Matchups 11:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.