Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rami Jaber


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 17:18, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Rami Jaber

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Submitting for deletion discussion after an IP-editor contested both WP:BSD and WP:PROD. The article’s subject lacks basic notability, and most of its claims are either unsourced or dubious. The subject is an unimportant yellow paper showbiz celebrity in Finland, and the producer of three self-funded short films distributed on YouTube. The subject is totally unknown internationally.

In Finland the subject was best known for his “golden Mercedes”, one of only three in the world as he claimed, which later became confirmed to be is a standard 2005 MB500S, with golden foil and a spoiler kit. The article has already been removed once, but has reappeared, with unpublished details that could origin only from the subject himself. Caygill (talk) 16:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC) — 108.0.216.67 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete as I myself tagged this, nothing at all actually convincing of any applicable notability.  SwisterTwister   talk  18:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Maintain as I'm familiar with the sport and Rami Jaber is indeed notable as the most successful driver of Palestinian ancestry. He is well known throughout the MENA territories and his driving films are popular among enthusiasts. The existence and the notability of these films are well-cited and can be found in reputable databases such as IMDB. The subject meets the notability criteria on the basis of his career as a director alone. The driving accolades are poorly cited, but that doesn't make this article a candidate for deletion. Other users should be encouraged to improve the article with additional citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.0.216.67 (talk • contribs)
 *  Delete  (striking because that opinion is implied by the nomination. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:58, 25 May 2016 (UTC)) not notable as media producer or entrepreneur, and most certainly not as an athlete of motorsport. --Caygill (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't Delete Subject's rally career is well documented and his driving films are among the most notable and widely recognized in the industry. Subject is notable enough on the basis of his film career alone for inclusion. The article is poorly cited in places, but is not a candidate for deletion based on Wikipedia's guidelines. Instead, editors should suggest places for additional citations and help to improve.ZLisabeth (talk) 21:07, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * ZLisabeth, these discussions are not supposed to be based on personal opinions, but on evidence. Could you please give us the evidence from independent reliable sources, not the press releases and other self-published sources that are in the article, that supports your claims that Jaber's rally career is well documented and his driving films are among the most notable and widely recognized in the industry. If you can provide that evidence then the article can be kept. Otherwise you will not, if Jaber had any sense when agreeing the contract, receive your fee for writing this. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:51, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * While I certainly disdain your unfounded accusation that I would accept payment for a Wikipedia aritcle, I'd like to address the substance of your comment. My interest in the Rami article is as a fellow palestinian and Finnish speaker. It appears that Rami is being targeted on the basis of his Palestinian ancestry, and that's just wrong. Even though the sources cited on the page are not in English, that does not mean they can't be used to substantiate both his career as a rally driver and a director. I think we can have this discussion without you impugning my integrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZLisabeth (talk • contribs) 22:11, 25 May 2016 (UTC)


 * It only takes a quick look at your other contributions here to see how implausible your claims are, but you can easily prove me wrong by, as I said, providing some independent reliable sources that back them up. Nothing has been said anywhere that in any way implies that Jaber's (this is an encyclopedia, not a chat among friends, so we refer to people by their surnames once the full name is known) Palestinian ancestry or Finnish residency is a factor in this discussion. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 22:26, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure what the purpose of your ad hominem might be. Almost every one of my other articles has been checked and approved and remains live on Wikipedia. Regarding the issue at hand, though, there are several independently published sources that verify the subject's status as an accomplished rally driver and director. Might there be a more nefarious political motive at play with this deletion attempt? That's not for me to say. Read the cited articles. Many are in Finnish because, as the article states, Jaber is a Finnish national. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZLisabeth (talk • contribs) 01:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * To make the long story short. I contest the rally career, it's fake and unsourced - and I can prove it. No number of Finnish first hand interviews will make these claims true. And I thank you for implying rasist motives for this discussion. Let's start with proving your article notable and accurate, shall we? --Caygill (talk) 02:12, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Here is Rami Jabber's complete international rally career: | eWRC-Database. The only entry corresponds with the article's Qatar Rally 2010 with the difference that he didn't win that rally but place last, driving literally half the speed of the winner. --Caygill (talk) 02:22, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * For the remaining claims, you can listen to an English interview with the subject: | Prince Rami. It aired on Radio Rock, a department of Finland's biggest media house Sanoma Group.--Caygill (talk) 02:46, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * ZLisabeth, thanks for drawing attention to the other articles that you have created. None remains live now, with one being redirected and the rest deleted as spam. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 09:20, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

— 45.48.227.170 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep While some of the rally claims in Jaber's article are poorly cited and disputable, the film citations appear sound. IMDB is reputable database and as a Finnish speaker I can also confirm that the sources support the claims in the article. Jaber is a notable enough producer of driving content to merit inclusion. His name is certainly recognizable in Scandinavia. I don't think this article is a candidate for deletion pursuant to Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons, but it could be improved with additional citations. If specific rally claims are demonstrably false or unsubstantiated, those individual claims should tagged and removed. Not sure what his Palestinian ancestry has to do with anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.48.227.170 (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * IMDB is not considered a reliable source for this purpose. Although I don't find it disputed that Jaber has produced a couple of high quality YouTube videos, these productions has nothing to do with feature films or anything distributed through theaters or commercially. Also 45.48.227.170, please don't just remove problem templates from this article. --Caygill (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * May I suggest that the following first time IP editor from CA (socket puppy) will not use the phrase "article is poorly cited" in defending the subject's notability?--Caygill (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. Firstly I note that this is a promotionally worded article created by a proven spammer, so if there is any presumption in favour of keeping that should be abandoned in this case. Looking at the sources cited in the article I can't see anything that appears independent and reliable and has significant coverage of Jaber, which are the kind of sources that can contribute to notability, but I may be hindered in my search for other sources by the fact that Finnish is one of the few European languages that I can't make any sense of, and I so rely on machine translation. Can anyone identify any sources which meet that definition? If so I might change my opinion, but they would have to be sources that discuss Jaber from a neutral point of view rather than just report his outlandish claims. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


 * There is one journalistic long article by Helsingin Sanomat, Finland's leading newspaper. It's written with plenty of sarcasm, which is hard to catch by a machine translation. I however took the freedom of translating the last part of it :


 * "And so ends the story of the handsome prince, who had by strange coincidences ended up in the cold North.


 * The prince walks out of the building holding a diamond in his hand. He looks towards the evil men, who have in their hands small machine guns, and now the take is going well.


 * The film will be completed, it will get a billion spectators and the City of Oulu huge publicity.
 * The prince becomes a Hollywood star, his children are proud of their father and the people of Oulu of their own prince. Nordic film production rises to prosperity, and no one mind digging through the small inaccuracies in the prince's background.


 * And so they all lived happily ever after." --Caygill (talk) 14:35, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Google Translate isn't very good between unrelated languages such as Finnish and English, but it's enough to get the point that, if this article contributes to notability, that notability is as a fantasist rather than as a rally driver or actor or film producer. I don't think that it would be possible to write a neutral BLP on the basis of that source, so my "delete" opinion still stands. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 16:40, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

User talk:Vipinhari#
 * Delete - almost everything in this article either fails WP:V or the GNG. By and large, the stuff in the article that would make Jaber notable isn't sourced, and the stuff in the article that is sourced isn't enough to make Jaber notable.  ✤ Fosse   8 ✤  10:08, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
 * unfamiliar with the closing process, how does it work - 7 days has passed. --Caygill (talk) 14:48, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  15:39, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  15:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions.  Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  15:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions.  Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  15:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Since we are debating an article, with unsourced claims of notability, I take the freedom of adding a verifiable but unsourced claim myself: Jaber is purchasing followers and post likes for each of his posts on Instagram. I've conducted research in the subject and have given the statistical proof to a journalist covering the case in Finland. Just another piece in the puzzle that everything about Jaber is fake, and he isn't famous because he's famous. He's totally unknown outside his small circle in Oulu, Finland. And all that said, I highly mislike the fact that socket puppetry seem to be allowed in defending this article. --Caygill (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I have asked the relister to reconsider that action and leave the closure to administrator who has access to ZLisabeth's deleted contributions, as they show that that editor is a proven serial spammer, which should be taken into account when evaluating his contributions. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I note that Vipinhari has not been editing since I asked him to revert this relisting, so maybe a passing admin could take a look at whether relisting was a good idea? I'm pretty sure that I would be entitled to revert the relisting myself, but am reluctant as I get enough grief for performing normal editing actions without being logged-in without having to cope with the flaming that would undoubtably come if I was to do so. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I hear you 86.17.222.157, but after my initial hesitations, I have learned to respect your consistent and knowledgeable contributions. --Caygill (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I certainly didn't mean to aim my last comment at you. You have been a model of civility compared to other editors, including at least one administrator, who have taken exception to the fact that a non-logged-in editor might actually be contributing more usefully to Wikipedia than they are. Just take a look at my talk page for confirmation. 86.17.222.157 (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails WP:GNG. Tom29739 [ talk ] 00:27, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.